Truth Behind Horror Stories in Big Law?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I have been both a resident and an associate. And as bad as an associate’s job can be-- and it can be bad-- you get to sleep (at least almost always) in your own bed – as opposed to being up all night or taking cat naps in a shared on-call room for 36 hours at a time. No comparison. None whatsoever. </p>

<p>Also you mess up as an associate, a partner will correct it before it goes out–no big deal except to one’s ego. If you really mess up as a resident someone gets hurt–sometimes very hurt. The pressure is not comparable.</p>

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<p>So true.</p>

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<p>Also true. You just have to go into it knowing what it will be like. And honestly, you should be physically and mentally healthy.</p>

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<p>Working for “small law” is no picnic either. I have a number of friends who have their own law firms, including my brother. Most of them are always under the gun, and for them it’s even more pressing that they make their deadlines as money is very tight. Everyone has to pull his weight in such companies. When my friends are hot on a case, sleeping on a couch is a luxury. The problem with small law is the same as owning many small business, very little margin unless wildly successful.</p>

<p>My neighbor really worked like crazy as an associate at a major law firm, didn’t make partner and then had to give it another go, and then got the brass ring. Its good going now. The same with another neighbor here who is a partner at a white shoe firm in Manhattan. The rewards are there if you “make it” unlike in small law where it can always be a struggle. My friend who owns what is considered a successful law firm is always a dollar short and a day late. She would love to be a partner at a major at this point in her life. She is constantly hustling. And she does make the bucks. IT’s just a lot of work and time.</p>

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<p>I’ve said that for years…no matter how much I screw up, nobody dies. I could be fired, disbarred, sued for malpractice, but nobody dies.</p>

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<p>In my experience, the posts by midwestmomofboys, cartera45 and others are spot on.</p>

<p>I’ve worked in Biglaw in NYC for quite a number of years now - long enough to have seen boom and bust cycles, layoffs, hiring freezes, inability to hire fast enough in good times, wining and dining of summer associates, and plenty of associates and partners come and go. </p>

<p>I hear the concern that’s been expressed that there can be partners that are unreasonable or just downright mean and nasty. Certainly, there are some less-than-pleasant people who work in Biglaw, just as there are in most any field. However, that is not the norm. What you do find a lot of, however, are people who are working to meet severe timelines, under the very critical eye of their colleagues and clients, and who are often working with extremely little sleep. Many people (myself included) are not at our kindest and gentlest under those circumstances. </p>

<p>That said, many attorneys take a lot of pride and satisfaction in mentoring younger attorneys, including coaching them on how to work through the inevitable times when staying at the office all night, sometimes for days at a time, is required. That’s not to say that there is much coddling or hand-holding going on. If you work at a top Biglaw firm, you will often be thrown into the deep end and required to sink or swim. There are always going to be bright associates who are smart and who did remarkably well academically but who don’t make it simply because the challenges of the workplace are too much for them. There are also going to be those who choose to leave and seek warmer, fuzzier workplaces. </p>

<p>There are most certainly financial rewards that come with working in Biglaw, but, for me, a very significant reward has always been that I get to work on challenging, cutting edge legal matters that require me to combine my experience with out-of-the-box thinking every day. I have very nice, long standing relationships with many of my clients and colleagues, and most days I enjoy going into the office. However, though I am now a senior attorney with my own book of business, my hours today are not much shorter than they were when I was younger. I do have more control and insight into when I will have to pull the longest hours, and that gives me a bit more ability to tailor my work to my life. (In fairness, though, I did work until 3 a.m. last night and will likely have to work equally as late tonight.)</p>

<p>Please feel free to ask any questions that you may have.</p>

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<p>As for being a doctor, you have to take calls for the rest of your working life.That means you will get phone calls in the middle of the night and have to go to the hospital to see the patients and make life and death decisions at those hours.It gets old when you have to do it in your 50’s,60’s. I’ve been married to one for 37 years.</p>

<p>My D is married to a sr associate in NYC biglaw firm. Instead of bailing(he’s worth more to other firms now) he’s chosen to wait for the tap on the shoulder in a year or so, hopefully positive news.</p>

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<p>Some doctors, maybe. Around here, you get referred the ER. Most doctors are in practices and they rotate, with the seniors getting better terms. It’s not like the old days when you have one doctor hopping around all of the time. I do remember that. Being on call these days is not the same as it used to be.</p>

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<p>There are some very unpleasant people in BigLaw, but I find that the exception. The vast majority are fine, honorable people who want to do good in addition to doing well. It’s not an accident that law firms devote so many thousands of hours to pro bono work, and they do amazing things at the human being level, like helping abused or neglected children, restoring rights to people who have paid their dues, helping victims of disasters.</p>

<p>I would say that the major downside is that a career in such a firm has a shelf life. Most firms are “up or out.” Which means that at the end of a pre-determined period of years if you haven’t made partner, you must leave the firm. It’s hard to start over in your early to mid-30s and suddenly have to take a massive paycut. But most people don’t make it that far and make a change as soon as they’ve paid off education debt and secured their financial futures.</p>

<p>Nowadays, being a partner at a firm is no guarantee, either, unfortunately. It’s very common for partners to be de-equitized or asked to leave. </p>

<p>When one is a partner in a law firm, there is an element of risk-taking and knowing that many employees and their families are counting on your for their salaries and bonuses. I find that something to be respected and admired.</p>

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This is outdated. </p>

<p>I was just reading in the Wall Street Journal article "The Doctor’s Office as Union Shop " that something like 1/2 of the doctors in the country are now in large practices where they have scheduled on-call duty just every few weeks or so. That percentage is expected to climb to 80% within a few years.</p>

<p>There are now a breed of doc called “hospitalists” that handle all care for these practices once you are in the hospital; its actually an issue for patients because your family doc that you’ve come to know over the years is not going to be the one handling your care in the hospital, its going to be some doc you’ve never met before.</p>

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<p>Yes, my H has to go in when the ER docs call for consults.
My H works in a multi-specialty group. When he joined, there were 24 docs. Now they have 130 docs. His calls are not as frequent as in the early days but still on call days are brutal.</p>

<p>Hospitalists are mostly primary care. They don’t have specialists as hospitalists.
Yes, I read that WSJ article and their stats are way off. Most docs are still fee for service and if you take away the incentives, you will have to wait months to see anyone. Most will work minimal hours.</p>

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<p>The problem with being an associate in “big law” is that there is a good chance that you are going to be cut since you are in competition for just a few spots, and your competition is comprised of some very smart, talented people which makes the going very stressful and even painful. It’s this trial by fire with out a good chance of the outcome one wants that is horrible. It’s a brutal process made even more difficult as those who are in the running are used to getting the prize which is why you are even in the running.</p>

<p>It makes things a lot easier to go for clerkships with judges first. You lose out on pay, but you are on the A list for a job with the firms when you have that kind of resume’. Not having it makes it particularly stressful.</p>

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<p>Yes, this is one of a long list of reasons why clerking is awesome. You come into the firm as a second or third year, you get to skip much of the worst hazing, and you are much more likely to get interesting and challenging assignments in your first firm year. I came into my firm as a Harvard Law grad with a two-year district clerkship in a big city. On literally my first day, I was brought into the office of the chairman of the firm with three other partners. They assigned me to write a brief making a complex administrative law argument in support of summary judgment in a consumer finance class action defense. That is a million miles away from the way most of my classmates were treated on their first days working in the same department of the same firm.</p>

<p>(This is another potential advantage of going to a firm in a smaller market. If you are a hot recruit, you’ll get better work at the beginning. I don’t want to be the associate who barely made it into that year’s class, even at a great firm.)</p>

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<p>The clerkship opens doors when you want to make a lateral move, and pretty much everyone does. I work with firms, of all sizes. that are not keen on looking at any lateral candidate without a federal clerkship. The top litigation boutiques are the biggest sticklers for the clerkship.</p>

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<p>Along Hanna’s train of thought, In my recruiting group meeting, we were discussing the fact that a bunch (I have no numbers) of firms have started hiring diversity interns or other similarly-described attorneys. They are almost universally not getting the good work and not being traeated like the clerks or other desirable associates. I guess it’s because they aren’t technically associates and aren’t really on the partnership track. It’s a shame, though, because it’s almost like a red letter on their persons and they might have done better at a less “prestigious” firm where they were on equal footing. Just musing.</p>

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<p>After a 2 year clekship with a federal judge, I worked for three years for a very large New York firm. While I worked incredibly hard, I got great experience and made more money than I knew how to spend. 90% of the time the partners I worked with treated me very well. Quite a few of the associates I worked with complained a lot, as in all of the time. I really never understood it–everyone knew what they were getting in to, there was no false advertising about how hard you would have to work and the high pressure environment. My attitude was that for the money I was making, the firm pretty much owned me. I left New York after the three years to move closer to family, not because I hated the firm or the work. I have practiced in a mid-size city since, I work less and make a lot less money than I would have if I stayed. No regrets about working at the big firm, great experience, and no regrets about moving to a smaller city for lifestyle. Both worked at difference points in time in my life.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for posting these stories. </p>

<p>I was warned about some of this stuff too here last year when looking into law school. It amazes me that the human body can hold up that way through work. </p>

<p>I have two questions at the moment. 1.) This thread seems to be the negative side of big law, but what would you all describe as the positive (aside from the financial rewards, of course! heh); and 2.) Is there a way in which the physical strain catches up with you in that environment? </p>

<p>Thanks so much! And I find this thread fascinating!!</p>

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<p>“there was no false advertising about how hard you would have to work and the high pressure environment. My attitude was that for the money I was making, the firm pretty much owned me.”</p>

<p>I felt that way too. Nobody was trying to fool me. It was a straightforward deal: $150,000 for a year of my life, with either party free to walk away at any time. I thought that was a fair price in 2004.</p>

<p>I’m glad I did it. But I didn’t do overnights or get too stressed about the place. I was happy to be a B student in the law firm world. I knew I wasn’t partner material, and I made my hours, nothing more. I don’t know if you can get away with that attitude nowadays. It will catch up to you more quickly.</p>

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<p>in my experience (many years ago at two different law firms), the issue with associates being worked so hard isn’t a matter of the associates having to “put in their time” and then things get better. the partners may not have been there proofreading documents at 2am, but they also worked really hard. they got to be where they were by not only working hard, but by thriving under pressure – they loved that they worked on important matters for important clients. and they in turn expected that from their associates. </p>

<p>i’ve said it many times before, but its worth repeating. law is a service industry. you are there to serve your client. PERIOD. whether your client is a person closing on a home, a government agency, a not-for profit, or a multinational corporation, it is your job to work for your clients - to put their interests first. and a law firm is a business – it exists by getting clients and keeping clients. big law can pay the salaries they pay because they are billing a lot of hours at high rates to big clients who can afford to pay it – and when the economy meant that fewer clients were willing to pay those sums, it had a huge impact on the legal field. clients who pay that kind of money expect high quality legal work and they also expect the work to be done when the want it done. not when your personal life makes it convenient for you to get it done.</p>

<p>the type of clients you have will go a long way to determining the type of life you will have as a lawyer – even lawyers working “in-house” with a corporation or for the government have a client. you want to know what type of life you will have as a lawyer? look at the clients you will be serving. what will they pay? what demands will they make? </p>

<p>i think many people who end up looking at biglaw are people who have in general been academically successful. they did well and got into a good college. they did well and got into a good law school. they did well and got a biglaw offer. well once you are at biglaw, “doing well” is still important – but the big payoff for doing good work is… more work.</p>

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<p>I think unbelievablem answered that in part:</p>

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<p>Oh, yes. I work for Medium Law in Medium City and we’ve had attorneys who have been hospitalized for exhaustion, a collapsed lung, one 41 year old had a fatal heart attack in the courtroom. I do, however, think that some people are really really driven and would be working 80-100 hour weeks if they moved to Belize and opened a dive shop.</p>

<p>Another thing to remember about the behavior and expectations of partners is that big clients can be hard to come by and fairly easy to lose. It’s competitive out there. If you are working for a client who pays the firm $XX million a year, and because of that, the partner is making $X million a year, you can bet that the partner will demand that the associates who work on the file deliver perfection and fabulous service. She can do it in a nice way or a nasty way, but the stakes are really high.</p>

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<p>Big time law protects banks, insurance companies and the other fortune 500 companies. Your first couple years will likely be spent reviewing documents down in some basement. If that’s what you want, then welcome to big time law. BTW the ultimate question that you should ask yourself is what will you do if you don’t make partner? Will you be happy working in a small firm going up against the bigger firms. If so, the big firm will be a good training ground even though the work is bound to be long and tedious.</p>