Trying to narrow down options for music major

College Majors Music Major
1

My son is a junior, so he has some time to narrow down what he is interested in. I hope some of you might be able to help me help him with good questions, programs to look at, etc.

The basics are - he is at a competitive high school doing well in rigorous classes (top 5% GPA, honors classes in math, science and language). His SAT score was 1490 when he took it cold last June; I assume that with some practice it will improve a bit (he will take it again in March).

Music is like oxygen to him. He listens all day long. He will listen to the same few pieces over and over (currently Prokofiev’s 6th and 7th symphonies), to different conductors and orchestras, with the score in front of him, marking it up. He has just started really getting into composing; I have no idea if he has any skill but he’s starting to spend more time on it. His best friends are all deeply interested in classical music and they will chat for hours about this performance or that piece.

His interests and skills in music are varied. He’s at a selective precollege program on horn. He takes extra classes in conducting and composition. His true love is piano performance; he studies with a private teacher and gives a solo performance every year with a lot of varied repertoire. In the summer he goes to camp for piano/chamber music.

Right now he says he wants to do a dual degree program like Tufts/NEC or Columbia Juilliard with a math BA and a piano performance BM. But it doesn’t line up with how he’s spending his time . . . he does practice piano a lot, and he gets good results for the amount of time he spends practicing (according to his teacher) , but it’s nowhere near the amount of time I hear other parents talking about their kids practicing. If you look at how he spends his time, it’s about 25% piano practice, 25% (increasing) composing, 15% horn practice (minimum to get by in his precollege program) and the rest just listening and reading along with scores. That doesn’t look like the focus that a piano performance major would have? And the math . … math is easy for him and when I asked what he would major in at a dual degree program, that’s what he came up with. But he spends no extra time on it.

Thoughts? I know he doesn’t have to figure everything out right now, but I am worried that piano performance isn’t the right way to go . . .

2

A couple of other notes! I did read the very helpful essay by David Lane and a few other threads on music programs/degrees/decisions. And he won’t need financial aid (but at some point will need a job . . .).

3

I do not have any answers, but quite a bit in your post is familiar.

That was my experience also, at least through high school math, as well as calculus and differential equations (both of which I took in university because my high school did not offer them). Math will get more difficult at some point and will start to require that the student actually make an effort. I did major in math in university and it did lead to a good career.

The combination of math and music is also very familiar to me. I have both played an instrument and been good at math for most of my life, and several friends are the same (with “computer science” replacing “math” in some cases). I have several times been surprised when at some music event to see someone I knew from work (in high tech) get up on stage and play. In one case it was right before I got up on stage and played. In most other cases I was just there to listen. In one case my friend, after their first set, came over and chatted and gave us CDs of his music. Then he went back on stage for a second set. Math+Music is a common combination.

One daughter was a very talented musician, and through middle and high school had a sign on the wall in her room that said “music = life”. Half way through high school she went (with a group) on a music tour across part of Europe. She decided that she was not fond of traveling and you get tired of the songs. She started neglecting her music and focusing on academics. Right now she has just started her third year in a DVM program.

Kids figure this out over time.

Music is a tough way to make a living. I do know someone who pulled it off as a professor of music. At one point he introduced my musical daughter and I to someone who had been a singer and dancer on Broadway. She discovered that the pay is bad, NYC is expensive, and you get tired of the same music. She went back and got her PhD, and then also became a professor of music. I know a lot more people who have been successful in high tech and who play music on the side.

And there are a LOT of people who are very good at playing piano.

In this situation I do not think that I would count on being done with paying for university after four years.

1 Like
4

In reading about your son, it reminded me of a violinist who was something of a child prodigy, having finished all the coursework for doctorates in both math and music by the age of 18. He happened to attend Indiana University, one of the top music programs in the country, and a place that might suit your son’s own interests.

Another place your family may want to investigate is Oberlin. Its conservatory is excellent, but the school offers lots of opportunities for students to meld studies between music and more traditional subjects. Also, it has produced a number of alumni who’ve gone on to earn their doctorates in math, second in Ohio only to Ohio State during the 2000-2018 time frame (source). Ohio State had alumni earn 1/3 more doctorates (73 to 48), but then again, it has about 15x the number of students as Oberlin.

St. Olaf (MN) is another strong contender that I’d consider checking out. I’ve heard good things about their music program, and they also punch way above their weight with respect to producing PhDs in math (65, more than U. of Minnesota and close to the number Ohio State’s produced, but again, about 15x smaller).

Hopefully others will have more suggestions for you. @compmom will probably also comment.

5

Good news is that he has time to consider. If he is not at the Juilliard precollege program he should not get invested in the Juilliard/Columbia program. My understanding is that almost always goes to their precollege students and the number is very limited. Vanderbilt has a wonderful conservatory and it is easy to double major. If he is at a precollege program can he speak with a piano teacher or the director about his goals and piano skills to get some direction?

2 Likes
6

I was going to recommend the Double Degree Dilemma but I see you have read it. Has your son? He seems like an ideal double degree candidate. If his interest in math continues, MIT would be a great place for him. Strong music with double degree and other options. Oberlin, Lawrence, Bard, Tufts/NEC, Harvard/NEC, Yale/Yale SOM, Northwestern, U MIchigan, Princeton all come to mind. Of course there are many others. Does he have a geographic preference? (Bard requires double degree from all students. Oberlin has a “low wall” between Conservatory and college and has a new Musical Studies BA degree with access to the conservatory resources).

If he applies for a BA program, including a school like, say, Harvard, where the application is separate from the one for NEC, he should submit a music supplement with video/recording, music resume, and 1-2 music letters of recommendation (which can go beyond talent, and include work ethic, cooperation with others, width of interests, character and maturity etc. etc.)

From the way he spends his time, it seems he has a strong interest in composing and conducting. He is only a junior so the composing may progress. See what happens. I suggest he read “The Rest is Noise” by Alex Ross. It sounds as if he is mainly focused on older traditional classical works (yes, dead white males) so if he is really interested in composition, he should become more familiar with 20th and 21st century works. If he wants, of course.

If he does math, or starts to explore CS or engineering or any other STEM area, would he want a BA or BS? A BS is more intensive and there may be scheduling conflicts with music but people have done this combo.

Some schools of music and conservatories will require that a composer play an instrument as well, so piano or horn would continue. Others don’t have this requirement.

Just want to add that he can apply to different options- conservatory/school of music, math BS or BA, double degree, double major, major/minor composition, conducting, piano, horn…and decide late in senior year. He still has a lot of time to pursue his interests and make decisions.

If he wants a summer composition program, between junior and senior year, I recommend the Walden School in Dublin NH. It is very progressive, includes world class musicians and guest composers, and each student spends 6 weeks writing a 10-15 minute piece that is played and recorded. I also hear good things about Boston Conservatory’s summer program, Brevard and Atlantic (Institute).

One other option is to attend a challenging school (yes Ivies like Harvard, Yale, Princeton) or “little Ivies” like Williams, Wesleyan, Amherst, Tufts and do music as an extracurricular. That would involve majoring in math or CS, for example, and continuing lessons (often for credit) and extracurricular performance (also often for credit), supplementing with summer programs and festivals (often in Europe). I know gifted musicians who have done this and gone on to PhD’s in music. (Check out Princeton’s performance certificate and exchange program, and the revamped curriculum at Harvard for examples.)

I don’t mean to focus on reaches but it seems he is used to functioning at a high level and his music activities will certainly help with admissions along with his excellent academic record. That said, if her prefers the vibe of Oberlin or Lawrence or Bard, those are top schools too and the music environment is supportive. I would add Brown for vibe and rigor in math and CS, with a small music dept. that might appeal to someone interested in both CS and music.

2 Likes
7

Thank you everyone!

@DadTwoGirls - “Kids figure this out over time” was helpful, for two reasons. One, of course you are right, he will figure it out, and I can help him from a place of being relaxed instead of worried. He’s smart and he is in touch with many good people in music. But moreover, it made me realize that what he needs is time to figure it out, which means the idea of applying to conservatory alone doesn’t make sense, because it’s kind of the opposite of time to figure things out.

@AustenNut, thank you for those specific suggestions. I think the idea of focusing on undergrad programs with a strong graduate program is really good, I hadn’t thought of that. It will be a deeper/stronger musical peer group than schools with just undergrad programs, and the peer group is really important to him right now, being around other kids with interests that are in the same classical ballpark but different corners of it.

@Helpingthekid73 - You are right about Columbia/Juilliard from what I have heard, and he’s at Juilliard precollege on horn not piano (and although he’s good at horn it’s not where he wants to spend his life). This is an area I think he really has to stay open and not get attached to that program, because the students at Juilliard seem to know exactly what they want and he doesn’t, so although the precollege program makes perfect sense for him (especially the wide range of extra classes he can take), at this point the conservatory doesn’t seem like a great fit. So looking at lots of options is important. Also I doubt he will get into to Juilliard or any really selective conservatory on piano performance.

@Compmom Thank you! I am now planning to read through your threads! I sent him the essay, let’s see if he opens it. The book looks great - I got it for myself! All of my kids and their dad are trained in classical music to a greater or lesser extent and I am not, so I’m always on the looking for books or lectures for an interested amateur audience. I’ll leave it for him when I’m done.

He doesn’t have a geographic preference, he’s equally happy with urban/not urban, he just wants to focus on music, which is good - it opens up Oberlin to USC to Yale.

I’ll have him look at Walden, especially if he gets more into composing. Right now he’s very attached to Kinhaven. It’s a lot of piano/chamber music which he doesn’t do at precollege, and the rural environment is a nice change. The cooperative friendly ethos is one he really likes. He can function in a highly competitive place but he doesn’t thrive off of competition.

It does seem like dual degree is a good idea in his case, especially because it seems like most of the dual degrees have kids focusing on the BA/BS the first two or three years with lessons, transitioning to more conservatory classes the last two years, so that would give him space to figure out what he wants. And your point that he has time is good - it’s just a lot of looking at specific programs and a lot of auditions/organization.

The math right now is an afterthought, I think he is saying that just because it’s his easiest class at school and he gets good results in high level classes with little effort. But he doesn’t spend extra time on it. His oldest sister is a math major at an Ivy and at the same age she was reading math books outside of school, taking classes outside of school, doing the math team . . . I don’t see any of that in him. He has a mind that could be good at coding (he programs clever video game levels). So I think he has a capacity there but it’s entirely unfocused. So it doesn’t make sense to make to present him as a strong candidate for math major. I think it’s more . . . he has a cool mind, I hope some college will see that and take a chance on seeing where it goes.

He does function at a high level academically now, so we are definitely looking at Ivies/reaches, but I’m also aware that if he gets overwhelmed in junior year his grades could dip. And there’s a glaring B+ in history not one but two years. So I want to spend most of the time we look at schools on likelies and targets, so that he is sure that ALL the schools that end up on his final list are the ones that he would be happy at. With some reach visits thrown in for motivation. We just spent an afternoon with a kid in his 5th year Harvard/NEC program, and of course now that is at the top of his list and he’s very motivated, but that can’t be the plan.

Side note - I took a look at MIT and I’m not sure . . . I assume the performance groups are at a high level but the music program itself at MIT is small (website says: Between five and ten students each year choose to major in music and receive the degree of Bachelor of Science in Music (Course 21M) or the joint major, Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Engineering/Science ). I’ll look for threads that speak directly to the music experience at MIT.

Thank you again! I’ll be coming back to re-read your messages as we keep looking and thinking.

1 Like
8

I would never discourage someone who lives, eats and breathes music to major in something else…if they want to major in music. I think it’s important that your son consider the options well.

We need people who are entering and are supportive of the arts as a career. We do. My opinion.

2 Likes
9

Hopefully others with greater familiarity with the different programs can help provide additional insight into which programs might be better (or worse) fits based on his preference to avoid a highly competitive place.

To clarify, when I was mentioning students going on to get doctorates, they weren’t necessarily going on to get doctorates at that school. They were going on anywhere, and at St. Olaf and Oberlin that focus on undergrad education, they probably went elsewhere. The source I used had math as a option, but the only thing I could find that would relate to music was the Other Humanities/Arts option, which is really too broad to make any kind of suppositions about graduate music performance.

I absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that you are doing this, and wish more parents did the same.

Another school not too far from St. Olaf that you might want to consider is Luther (IA). It has about 1600 undergrads and someone recently was talking about how much they liked the music program there (according to College Navigator, it had about 37 students graduating with a music-related major).

Does he have any size preferences? Thoughts about Greek life? Does he still want his school to have some intercollegiate sports enthusiasm, or could he care less? Anything else that he would like his college to have? Also, what would be the budget, and would your family qualify for any need-based aid? (Running the Net Price Calculator at a school like Yale would be good…if you don’t get aid there, you’re unlikely to get need-based aid anywhere.)

10

I just completed a college search with my second daughter (and wrote all about it in another thread, which was so therapeutic) and this was critical to her search and peace of mind. She had no idea what she wanted to do or where to go, so we needed to find a few places that were likely where she would be happy. I have two older girls, and their searches have all been completely different. First daughter- high achiever and focused on math from a young age. Second daughter - mediocre grades, no idea what she wanted to do. And now this search! So different. With him, it’s like starting over, but with some wisdom. I have one more after him and her search is going to be really hard. She is hyper focused on psychology but that’s because she has been on the receiving end of some excellent care . . . how do you explain that in a college essay without scaring them? I have a few more years to figure that out, and an absorbing music search in the meantime.

2 Likes
11

My son was very similar in terms of academics and music – high enough academics that he could probably get into top academic schools and ivies, and very advanced in math. But just because you are good at something doesn’t mean you should pursue it. It sounds to me like your son loves music to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. I would probably focus on nurturing that, leaving the option open to change his mind, of course!

An out-of-the-box suggestion would be to do an academic music undergraduate degree. One option would be a BM in musicology or theory (or both). Another would be doing a BA in music (though colleges structure these very differently, so it would have to be the right program). In an academic music degree, you will typically be required to do extra piano and take course to develop all the musical skills for graduate level degrees in theory, composition, or conducting. Not all schools offer these degrees, and the application process is not always particularly transparent since they tend to have very few students pursuing this path.

You will find these programs more in academic university settings instead of conservatories. Places like Northwestern or Rice offer them in a music school setting. NEC does a theory degree in combination with either performance or composition. CIM/Case Western has some sort of program as well, but I don’t recall the details or which school it is centered at.

12

A few schools to think about:

U.Mass Amherst is very good for music and very good for computer science. I think that it is also very good for math although I do not have direct experience with this (in the sense of knowing anyone who graduated with a math degree).

McGill has one of the best music programs in Canada, and is also very good for math and computer science. The same could be said for Toronto. My daughter was accepted to McGill and very seriously considered going there. One thing that we were told is that the very good music professors there will often give lessons on the side to supplement their income. Students who are majoring in engineering or math or something else will often take music lessons.

Williams College might also be worth considering.

It was a very long time ago and things might have changed, but I was not impressed by the one music course that I took when I was a math major at MIT. In fact I was sufficiently unimpressed that the next music course that I took was at Wellesley College (through the MIT/Wellesley student exchange).

13

Your son reminds me of the violinist Scott Yoo.

While majoring in Physics at Harvard, he remained dedicated to his musical pursuits without interruption. Presently, he has established himself as a conductor. Is pursuing a dual major necessary for your son?

14

Doing a BA is not out of the box at all. I often suggest it as at least one option as do others. However, that means exploring schools that DO have a BM program, whether through an affiliated conservatory, conservatory on campus, or school of music, with some depth to make sure the best teachers and resources don’t go to the BM students only.

People often suggest music BA’s at schools that have a conservatory but sometimes they are not the best choice. Oberlin started their Musical Studies program to accommodate the talented music kids with other interests.

One more thing: no matter what he does, it gives him time to figure it out! I know kids who majored in something else and then got a doctorate in music. I know kids who majored in music and went on to either work or further study in another area entirely.

He is only just now getting into some aspects of the field. I personally think a little maturity and even more sophisticated information (conservatory preps tend to be a little conservative!) will help over the next year. If he does want to compose he really should do Walden or Atlantic to broaden his exposure :slight_smile:

Kids at Juilliard Prep get into Ivies all the time. One of mind did NEC prep and most of them went to Ivies. If he WANTS a “top” school, he has a good chance with his music. Just saying…

But LAC’s can be a good choice. Concerning double degrees, there are pros and cons. One strategy for grad school is to start the master’s in a fully funded doctoral program. You can enter with a master’s but you will have paid for it most likely! Also, especially with composing, your aesthetic may change away from the master’s you committed to as a double degree student. Choosing mentors via summer programs and developing a “voice” over undergrad years can mean going for a different kind of program entirely versus locking into a double degree. But there are obvious advantages to the double degree.

Honestly it seems to me you can wait 6 months or so to start choosing schools to look at. It seems like he might be changing musically as well as academically!

1 Like
15

I had a very similar high stat kid who was called a prodigy back in the day. Could talk about music all day long. Took 3 instrument lessons and composition. Never needed to practice as much as many of his peers. Full pay schools were not possible for us. He was insistent on double degree. He just graduated from a top 15 public U we got for a super reasonable price. His college offers varied by 40K+.

My only recommendation is ask directly about double degree when talking to faculty and hopefully doing sample lessons. We got really mixed thoughts/feelings on this and some teachers even told my kid directly they limited or didn’t take double degree students into their studios. Some didn’t recommend it. Even at schools that broadly advertised double degree. Teacher fit is most important for success here IMO. Look at faculty directly and less at music program rankings. A lot of schools in range of major metros will have top notch faculty. The “best” programs may not be flexible enough for a multi interested student.

Anyway, my kid went through college during covid and that definitely affected things for him. He just graduated and took a very high paying competive STEM job. But he took the job specifically in a location where he can be involved with some of his music people. He is considering grad school in a number of directions, but will probably try working for a couple years.

3 Likes
16

second this! I know several student musicians who turned down higher scholarships for a better fit teacher and studio.

3 Likes
17

hi my DD24 is similar in many ways and wrestling with her long list currently; she is likely to go down the duel route with physics plus maths alongside music. A few places she will rely on.great lessons and extracurricular where the duel route is unlikely or not available. Most of her choices have been mentioned but would add BU and john Hopkins/Peabody.

Re Columbia/juilliard - DD is in an equivalent stature pre college programme but seems that won’t count from what a few of you have said?

18

Several kids from the high level pre-college program my kids go to (or graduated from) have been accepted over the past 10+ years to the Columbia/Juilliard program, so I think it is possible if you are very high level musically and have an equivalent background to the Juilliard pre-college program.

1 Like
19

Ah, I understand.

Size preference - no. Greek life - no preference (I really doubt he would join a fraternity but he doesn’t mind it happening around him). Sports - could not care less. Anything else - We toured BU and they mentioned that they have a program with Royal College of Music and he said that’s nice but it won’t affect my decision. Budget - we don’t need aid.

Yes! That is beginning to come up for us as we tour - liberal arts schools with good music undergrad degrees that have strong classical components, like Northwestern as you noted and I’m adding Rice to our list. And @compmom that is excellent advice on undergrad schools with BM degrees. Giving him time to figure it out while supporting his keen interest is starting to be the theme.

@DadTwoGirls Thanks, I will add those to the search.

@Sympa Thank you! I also think about Matthew Aucoin who majored in poetry at Harvard and is now a composer. There are lots of good paths, I am trying to both watch which direction he seems and stay open to many possibilities, through the college process and after. A dual major is not necessary, I’m open to whatever, it’s just what he says he wants now, but he has limited exposure to programs so he doesn’t really know 1. what’s out there and 2. what he wants.

Good advice, thank you. I am mindful of teacher fit, he has had the same piano teacher since he was 6.

Is she applying to undergrad?

1 Like
20

Thanks again everyone, we have just finished four tours and I’ll use this thread as an ongoing reflection for the next couple of years. We were in Boston dropping his sisters off at college so we toured:

New England Conservatory - after touring NEC, he said he does not want to go to conservatory only. He is, however, interested in dual programs so he asked a lot of questions about those, and especially about opportunities for performance. The dual program with Tufts is a BM from NEC and BA/BS from Tufts. It sounds like there is a skew toward Tufts classes with lessons at NEC at the beginning, but students are allowed to audition for ensembles. The dual program with Harvard is a BA from Harvard and Master’s from NEC. The first three years are Harvard classes with NEC lessons, no possibility of auditioning for ensembles, but most students are very active in Harvard student ensembles. Then in year 4 students start to transition to NEC and year 5 they finish the Masters.

Another note on NEC - Although you should know the faculty before auditioning, you are applying to the program not an individual person, and the school places students with a teacher (according to the admissions person). They said that there is rarely switching in piano, but in composing, there is more fluidity as students try out different styles/focus.

Tufts - we walked around the math department which is in a new building so it feels quite bare and quite small. We weren’t able to talk to anyone but the impression was that it’s not a focus of the school (which might actually be fine, since I’m not sure he will end up a math major and even if he is, having a less intense program may be OK?). The music building is new and beautiful, though the focus does not seem to be on classical music. We also met with two students (seniors) who are family friends (not in math or music) and they are both very happy with their overall experience.

BU - It doesn’t seem to have a strong piano performance degree but the composing degree seems good (coincidentally the tour guide was a composing major so they had a lot to talk about). He could apply directly to the College of Fine Arts and then easily add a math major at the School of Arts and Sciences if he wants to (or not). I thought the overseas program with Royal College of Music sounded great but he was not that enthused about that. We didn’t look at the math department.

Harvard - we spent an afternoon with a student who is doing the Harvard/NEC program. This was a super interesting conversation and if anyone has specific questions please ask. He said out of 6 Harvard/NEC students in his year, 2 that he knows of are not continuing with the NEC masters after finishing their Harvard degree. He enjoyed some of the music department classes at Harvard (especially conducing) and was very involved in many student groups. The H/NEC student also had enormously interesting things to say about how he is thinking about his career post-college. My son already knows a lot about the math department because his sister is concentrating in math.

Next steps - let him focus on school/precollege and keep an eye on his evolving interests. Maybe one trip to a school with a BM like Northwestern to add that kind of program to the general landscape that he is mulling over. Think about summer programs in December (Kinhaven or Dublin/Atlantic, or other?). Then, a big set of visits in the spring.

3 Likes