<p>The MSAR (<a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/requirements/msar/[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/requirements/msar/</a>) will have the average GPA and MCAT of every school.</p>
<p>For residency data (although I agree it’s MUCH too early to be thinking about that): <a href=“http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf</a></p>
<p>thank you, IWBB. the links are very helpful.</p>
<p>I know it’s a long way for me to consider the residency. since WayOutWestMom talked about the difficulty to find residency in special areas, so I just wanted to follow it.</p>
<p>I have a question about the loan for medical school. My parents are kind enough fully support my undergrad in a good private school (unfortunately this school does not have any merit scholarship except need base), but I will get loan if I could get in the medical school. It’s about $300K+ 4 yrs later, I guess. I don’t know if this is common for medical students with such a big loan?</p>
<p>I want to be a doctor badly. I admire the doctor who saved my grandpa’s life by having 7 hr aneurysm surgery. But with this big loan, I really do not know if it worth to pursue the medical path? When can I pay it off, in 10-15 yrs? Any suggestion is appreciated!</p>
<p>Regarding the debt of med school students, the post 5 in a recent thread “nervous about paying for med school” includes a link to the AAMC site where the indebtness of med school students is posted.</p>
<p>For whatever the reason it may be, the median is $160k for public school med school students, and $190k for private school students. The “funny” math here is that, for example, the COA for many private med schools are $70k per year. Go figure!</p>
<p>COA is always a very liberal estimate because if the school inflates it’s COA then students can get larger loans. No one has to take out the full COA but it is better that the maximum amount be higher than needed. (At least this is what I heard from my school. For example we as MD/PhD students are intelligible for any sort of aid the med students get because the NIH money covers our full COA)</p>
<p>For whatever the reason it may be, the median is $160k for public school med school students, and $190k for private school students. The “funny” math here is that, for example, the COA for many private med schools are $70k per year. Go figure</p>
<p>The median probably is an odd number because some from each group have no debt (parents or military paying) and some have huge debt, some have low debt (maybe commute from home), and others have debt somewhere in the middle. I imagine that some who are married may have spouses that are paying the living expenses.</p>
<p>In an earlier thread, someone mentioned a highish percentage of his/her med school classmates were children of physicians. If true, then I’d guess that those students don’t have any/much debt. A friend of mine (wife of a surgeon) is paying full freight for two of her children who are currently in med school.</p>
<p>Here’s the chart mom2 is referring to</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data</a></p>
<p>Note that about 15% of grads from private med schools and 20% of grads from public med school graduate without ANY medical education debt. That skews the data for the rest of the numbers.</p>
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<p>According to that same chart, only 4% of public med school grads and 11% of private med school grads graduate with $300K or over in loans.</p>
<p>For that reason, I’d say that $300K in loans is fairly uncommon.</p>
<p>^the concept of people with no debt is basically captured on that sheet already by the fact that the mean’s are all lower than the medians.</p>
<p>Looking at the private+public numbers, we see 14% of students have no debt, and only 7% have debt less than 100k. A number that’s pretty interesting to think about (the small number of students with some but relatively minimal debt).</p>
<p>IWBB, from you post, you are a MD/PhD. SUPER! I am always wondering how this program works. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Is it also done in 4 yrs like regular MD? Because usually it takes more than 4 yrs, like 5-7 yrs to get PhD in any fields. </p></li>
<li><p>I guess (just guess) while in medical school with MD only prog, student does not need to do research. But with this PhD/MD, I think you have to do research?</p></li>
<li><p>You have to write a dissertations for it? I guess MD does not need it, just finish the classes and do clinics. </p></li>
<li><p>does usually MD/PhD student get RA/TA from the school/professor, since usually PhD student gets RA from the professor?</p></li>
<li><p>I assume that getting into MD/PhD program is much harder than just MD prog, on top of the hard to get into the medical school?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>"I guess (just guess) while in medical school with MD only prog, student does not need to do research. "
-Not true.</p>
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<p>One data point only, both of the above are not true for MD-only students at DS’s school. I believe almost all students do research, and all students write a thesis before graduation. (You could say the thesis requirement may not be as “rigorous” or “in-depth” as the dissertation requirement, though.)</p>
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<p>hahahahahahaha. Sorry, after 1 year in the lab with essentially just 4 nice graphs to show for it that was a good laugh. MD/PhD programs are typically 7-9 years total.</p>
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<p>You are correct that MD students generally do not “need” to do research but several specialties all but require it and some schools even do require it. Many MD only students still do research, it’s just more clinical and less basic than MD/PhDs.</p>
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<p>Correct, we must do a PhD dissertation. MD students, even if they’re doing research, are not writing dissertations. EDIT: CROSS POSTED WITH MCAT2. Depends on the school. For example my school has no research/thesis requirement but some do.</p>
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<p>Depends on the school.</p>
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<p>Yes. The average med student GPA/MCAT is 3.6/31, the average MD/PhD is 3.8/36. Being a successful MD/PhD applicant has been described as being a sextuple threat. You must excel in academics, standardized testing, research, extra curriculars, personal statement, LORs. My program this year said that they literally couldn’t accept anyone who didn’t get a perfect rating by all 6 of their interviewers because the applicant pool is just that competitive.</p>
<p>Last time I checked AMCAS, it seems like there are 800 MD/PhD seats vs 19000+ MD seats.</p>
<p>^and that 800 is a combination of MSTP programs (fully funded) and non MSTP-MD/PhDs (may or may not be fully funded depending on the institution). I don’t even know if I could honestly recommend that someone do an MD/PhD program if it weren’t fully funded.</p>
<p>…but it is long, long, long way and worth it if you planning to be involved in academics, correct? Some people would not be up to this loooong way at all (my D. is one of them)</p>
<p>Miami,</p>
<p>if you’re fully supported, then absolutely it’s worth it. It’s the best training for those who want to pursue this path and you do it without racking up debt allowing you to enter into the lower paying academic research track.</p>
<p>If you’re not fully supported, it’s a lot of money/time to spend, and if you’re an MD/PhD graduating with debt similar to an MD, you’re 4 years behind on loan repayments and looking at jobs with lower pay (research doesn’t pay like clinical practice does). Unless you are really committed to it, you’re probably going to fall into more straight MD careers because of the money and then what was the point of doing MD/PhD?</p>
<p>“if you’re fully supported, then absolutely it’s worth it”
-I and my D. are disagree. Lets take a fully supported program. You are never fully supported because of the opportunity cost. You are loosing 4 years of practice, that means 4 years of regular MD pay and 4 addtitional years of gaining experience in your specialty, building your customer base (patients). I always look at opportunity cost, you can tell that I have an MBA. Anything free, it it is fre for you or you are engaged in some voluntary activity and not charging any $$ for it, absolutely everything that does not have any monetary value still have an opportunity cost which could be calculated/converted into monetary value. There are actually rules (in business world) how to do it.
Again, not everybody will have loans after Med. School. I read here (do not know how accurate) that about 25% are loan free because of financial parental support. But again, even with the loans, loosing 4 years of Medical practice is much more than a loan (on average), considering, say $200k / year as average compensation (not at the beginnig of practice, not at the very end, somewhere in a middle)
Going into financially unsupported MD/PhD is completely out of our family range of potential career path, not possible for us at all, would never be considered by us or any kids/grandkids. It is for a very rich people.</p>
<p>I know the concept of opportunity cost but your costs are not the right ones. I (and most MD/PhDs) am not looking to start my own practice - in fact odds are at most I will be in the clinic one day/week (if at all) out of an academic medical center where I have no obligation to build a customer base since the university/hospital builds and maintains one for me. My goal is to get grants and build a name for myself as a scientist (and eventually an administrator) - that’s what’s going to pay the vast majority of my salary. I would argue that the PhD provides me training that exceeds (and thus makes me more competitive for grants - more likely to make discoveries) than what my straight MD classmates are getting.</p>
<p>For example, look at Neuro. Basically, of all the MDs graduating each year, only ~3% are MD/PhDs yet 63% of the K08 grants go to MD/PhDs. 44% of MD K08 winners got R01s but 58% of MD/PhD K08 winners did. MD/PhDs are also more likely to get K23s and then go on to R01s.<a href=“http://www.ninds.nih.gov/funding/areas/training_and_career_development/k08-k23_awardees_funding.htm[/url]”>http://www.ninds.nih.gov/funding/areas/training_and_career_development/k08-k23_awardees_funding.htm</a></p>
<p>^Well you do what is require by your goal, others in MD programs are looking for having practice the medicine in the office / hospital, they are not into career in science / acadmia, but you never know what will happen in a future. I do not see my D. going into science (not her thing), she wants to work with people (one big reason for ruling surgery specialy out, cannot talk to person who is under anestesia). Apparently she is pretty good at research…that is CLINICAL research which she fully enjoys.</p>
<p>What happens to opportunity cost when people end up serving in doctors without borders for a few years?</p>
<p>^They postpone paying off loans, having family…a s you can see the opportunity cost is huge while serving in doctors without borders for a few years. The question is not if there is a cost, the question is what one is willing to pay for this or that or whatever…very personal question that could be only answered by person herself. Is it much more nobel to raise your own kids or help others? Can you attach right or worng to this question? I cannot. What is right for one is absolutely worng for another. I can only tell you that raising your own kids is way way the hardest thing out there and I can see that some would bail out of it just being intimidated by the challenges. I do not know anything about doctors without borders.</p>