@jzducol – what you cited as an example is a non-sequitor. You’re not upset about DACA. You’re upset about CA charging out-of-state tuition to students who aren’t residents of the state. That has nothing to do with how you got to this country. That has everything to do with how states fund their schools. Your beef isn’t with DACA. Your beef is with states rights
PS A Californian who got into University of Illinois may also not be able to afford the $50,000+ tuition. While a DACA recipient in Illinois may be able to get a loan to attend UofI
PPS. A smart Illinois student who needs financial aid wouldn’t apply to UCB because UCB doesn’t give significant financial aid to out-of-state residents. It’s lesson #1 on College Confidential, which a smart student and a smart parent should naturally read before applying
I was dismayed to read that in my state (NY), there was pushback on giving free/reduced tuition to Gold Star kids when undocumented kids were getting FA. To me, the GS kids are more deserving as a unit because their parents died or were injured for our country. I was pleased to read that the GS kids will be getting funded.
I have very mixed feelings on undocumented kids getting FA that my citizen children could have used. On one hand, I think education is very important, My education enabled me to get into the middle class from the housing project where I was raised, so I genuinely understand the value of education. OTOH, I do feel upset that my kids didn’t get any FA and kids who are here illegally are getting it. I don’t have a problem with undocumented kids getting in state tuition if they have lived here, but FA is a different question and I am really internally conflicted about this.
Reality is that most of the undocumented who came here as young children are going to end up staying here. If they can’t get an education, they will be less productive than if they can. They will have US-born children and if their parents can’t suport those children, we shall.
Every year when the cut offs for National Merit are announced, some kids lear for the first time that they are illegal. (You have to be a citizen or have an application for citizenship pending to become a semifinalist.) These kids came at such a young age that they have no memory of their homelands. Their parents lied to them so that there was no risk that they might “spill the beans.”
Their parents rarely chose the US because of its educational opportunities. They chose it for economic opportunity–as did most of US-born citizens’ “comeover” ancestors.
And line citizens if their parents do not have a physical presence in NYS they are ineligible for state aid (this includes excelsior and opportunity programs). Non-citizens are eligible for services from opportunity programs but not money.
Right now they are still not eligible for TAP, Excelsior or ASAp
So much of the drama in these discussions is rooted in participants not understanding the facts. As if what we’re talking about involved “foreign” students suddenly showered with free money their poor downtrodden American counterparts can’t get their hands on. SMH.
If a school meets full need for all but expects the students to take the federal loans and the school takes the Pell grant and SEOG, the undocumented student is getting the same education as a $0 EFC student and the students who can file the FAFSA have ‘brought in’ about $6k + SEOG (say $3k), and work study funds (`$2k) to the school, plus they owe the student loans. An undocumented student costs the school the full COA while the $0 EFC student has brought $11k in federal aid plus the $5500 loan that the school received up front.
Some of the state programs do not require citizenship. Bright Futures doesn’t, so some undocumented students are getting more than citizen/documented students. Any program that is ‘last payer’ is going to pay more for an undocumented student than for a $0 EFC because the is no Pell grant or other funds to pay first.
University of Virginia meets full need, but I didn’t say it had to be a public school. Some schools meet full needs but do expect the students to take out loans so if there were two students, one able to file FAFSA and one not, the one able to file FAFSA would have to take the loans.
The funds for bright futures are public funds (part of the state budget). They are given out by a separate agency, but paid through colleges and universities. If the program didn’t exist, the money could go directly to the colleges and either be available to all student through lower tuition or direct financial aid. Before 2012 (? I think that was when the change happened), in order to qualify for BF the student had to file a FAFSA. That’s no longer required so now undocumented students are eligible. Also at that time, the requirements for getting BF changed (a LOT), so fewer students are getting the money. So, the state had a fund that was only available to FAFSA eligible students, but then changed the requirements and in order to make the fund stretch to cover the bigger pool of applicants (documented and undocumented), they raised the qualifications. Those documented students who previously qualified with an ACT of 25 or so now do not. They get LESS.
Well, here is my personal example. One of my uncles and I were talking recently about current issues and he was telling me some of his personal experiences. He is recently retired after running a construction business in Atlanta for several years, he originally started off as a brickmason in business with his brother. At one point they were having trouble staffing a job and were in danger of losing the contract if he couldn’t get enough workers, one of his guys told him he could get the laborers and being in a tight spot he reluctantly agreed. Over the years he has employed hundreds of immigrants from Mexico and for the most part they were good workers. What did come up though is that they wanted him to provide documentation that they worked for him, but making just a couple hundred a month so that they could get food stamps, Medicaid, etc. He told them that he couldn’t do that and had quite a few that quit and found someone else who was willing. Now this was not a small percentage that requested this, he said that 100%, every single one that he had ever employed had asked him to do this, even the guy that he became close friends with and trusted to run the business when he had to be out of town. He said they had been taught that is the way things work and had no issues with it or saw no problem with it. As far as being hard workers, he says there is a tremendous difference between 1st and 2nd generation. The ones that had come into this country were good workers, but their kids who were born in this country definitely did not have the same work ethic.
Our country is struggling with many issues and I don’t see how we can properly deal with our own problems with an ever increasing drain on resources by those who are coming in illegally. The promise of free stuff is not going to attract the kind of people that are going to make a positive contribution to society.
A DACA student getting California residency or equivalent for tuition and FA purposes actually has fewer paths to do so than a US citizen or permanent resident. A DACA student can only use the AB540 way (which is open to US citizens and permanent residents as well) which is through high school graduation in California after three years of attendance, while US citizens and permanent residents also have the “normal” way (at least one year of residence with various indications of making one’s home in the state, for the student and parents of students who are considered FAFSA dependents). Also, a DACA student is not eligible for federal financial aid.
I have to agree that the citizens of each state get to determine how there state taxes are spent through there legislatures. So if states such as California want to financially support undocumented immigrants they can choose to do so. I don’t see a problem with that.
It’s far better for the state to invest in education of all who are capable - college or trades - than to put more money into services (all types) for the same folks. This includes deportation hunting and costs - especially when the folks they get have been contributing in to tax coffers for years as sometimes happens.
It really doesn’t matter if there’s an 11k or 20k difference TBH. The amount of education one has correlates very highly with higher pay and more tax dollars paid in to the state for years and generations. It also doesn’t matter what heritage the youngster has.
If we want to help our fellow humans, this is one of the best methods of doing so. It’s not a perfect correlation, but it’s a very high one.
It boggles my mind that some prefer to see capable poor follks kept poor pretty much akin to a caste system.
@creekland - taking away the educational incentives, as well as other incentives, will mean fewer illegal immigrants come here in the first place.
Illegal immigrants are a drain on the system, they consume more than the contribute and send a lot of money back to their home countries.
Our ancestors were pioneers and settlers, if they arrived on our shores unable to care for themselves they were put back on the ship and sent home. Now illegal immigrants get their foot on American soil and sign up for every possible government program to milk the American taxpayer.
Someone on here said she wishes we could all have the experience of speaking in depth with a refugee to make us more compassionate, see the work ethic etc. Then someone acted like American citizens don’t like this free tuition idea because they believe it’s taking money out of “downtrodden “ American hands, as if this is a foolish and untrue thought.
All I know is I have seen poverty in this country - extreme lack of resources that legal citizens in this country suffer. Would they also qualify for this free education?
If I were Grand Pumba of this situation they certainly would. I don’t believe in discriminating against anyone living in this country who could better their lives with education. All students would still have to do the work to qualify, of course, both in high school and college and it only makes sense to put a work requirement in the state afterward to it. One could do this with state loans that are forgiven when the work requirement is met or paid off if the student opted to relocate elsewhere.
I’ve seen education do wonderful things for some of the economically disadvantaged kids at the school where I work - and I’ve seen the results from not being able to get that education due to finances (acceptances in hand). Yes, I’ve also seen kids head off to college (or trade schools) and not do so well. Life is life. At least they had a chance.
