<p>VItrac - I don’t think advisers can know all aspects of Tulane, especially those that might be a bit under the radar such as this one. I do agree, though, that they ought to know enough to be able to at least steer the student in the right direction to find out and take it upon themselves to find out as well when they don’t know. It really didn’t take me very long at all once dreamtumbler mentioned computational linguistics.</p>
<p>FC,
Now, let me explain specifically my problems with your posts. Remember that at this point we thought the OP was looking to major in CS. You said</p>
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</p>
<p>Notice the “at least as valuable”, and “at least as strong an academic base”. You are not merely pointing out an alternative, you are making a normative statement that doing it on your own is at least as good and maybe even better than learning a subject by taking courses. If this were the case, why should universities offer courses in anything? Just let students show up, work on their own, and hang around the researchers and grad students who will answer their questions. And even if a student could manage to actually learn enough this way (and I doubt that, in real life, an undergraduate is going to be able to effectively access all this knowledge floating around in the brains of various faculty and grad students in a useful way) you are completely ignoring the other benefits besides courses that students (and faculty) get from established programs, like industrial contacts, recruiting, critical mass of peers, programming teams, etc. You say you could “make a strong argument” for your claim. If you can, then please do so. </p>
<p>You also said</p>
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</p>
<p>You are correct that CS is often used in some applied area. But it is just not correct that a student would be “actually be ahead of the curve” by studying that area at Tulane and learning CS on their own compared to a student at another university who could benefit from formal program in both areas. Which student would you be more likely to hire for, say, a computing related public health job–a student who double majored in CS and public health, or majored in one and minored in the other, or a student that majored in public health and claimed to have picked up CS knowledge on their own? The student learning on their own perhaps could come up with a concrete project to demonstrate their skills, but a student taking courses could do this, too, and they’d have both real credentials and a project. The Tulane student is at a disadvantage no matter how you look at it.</p>
<p>I’m sure you mean well, but you don’t know what you are talking about. I spent a fair amount of time investigating this very issue when my S was considering Tulane last spring (not to study CS, but a related field where he would need some computing courses and where interdisciplinary research often involves computer scientists), including looking at Tulane’s course offerings and who taught them, and even contacting the dean. The dean’s response was exactly what you’d expect from a university administrator who needs to put the best face on an unfortunate situation, but ultimately unconvincing. The lack of a computer science department is a real and significant weakness for Tulane. It is great that they are working to solve the problem, but in the meantime, I believe students should think long and hard about attending Tulane if this is going to impact their education in any way.</p>
<p>Why you want to argue about this here I have no idea. You are also taking what I am saying out of context. My statements that you quote were meant only IF she was really looking for a coordinate major type of situation as I said in post #3 (which it turns out she is) and IF there are resources to get the level of knowledge she wants in order to have a very solid foundation in linguistics AND to start to get into the areas involved in computational linguistics. I mean this is how it turned out, but it could have been equally possible for econ, finance, public health or whatever. People get strong foundations in the core subject and then move onto specific areas such as the computational aspects all the time. She will soon find out if this is possible or not at Tulane at a level that she feels meets her needs. Generalizations do no good at this point.</p>
<p>I am sorry you don’t think I know what I am talking about. You are entitled to your opinion. I just prefer you don’t take me out of context or overstate what I am saying. But yes, I think a person pursuing a full linguistics major who then also digs into the CS aspects of it (again, as I said numerous times IF there are sufficient resources to support this endeavor) might indeed go into grad school with a very solid foundation. To take that and make it sound like I am saying that all of college can be an independent study is beyond absurd. For example, I got interested in a particular area of chemistry when I was a student and even though no one was an expert in that area of research, I was certainly able to do independent research in it and talk to the professors about my ideas and what I found in the literature. Granted, that isn’t an exact comparison to this situation, but (again!) depending on the resources at Tulane, it might not be that far off. She will just have to see what she finds out.</p>
<p>There really is no point in arguing about this further. She is going to talk to a professor who clearly has knowledge in this area, and that should get her on the right path, even if that path is going elsewhere. Despite what you think I have no motivation at all to talk this student into staying at Tulane. I was simply trying to point out other possible paths, given the initially vague information, because I thought there might be more to it. As it turns out, that was apparently right.</p>
<p>You can rest easy, motherbear. I have not recommended Tulane for anyone looking for a straight CS major, nor do I intend to. In fact just the opposite. I have informed many people that have said they are applying to Tulane and then go on to say that they intend to major in CS or CE or EE or ME that Tulane does not have these programs. I also don’t think Tulane is “perfect” or right for everyone. I have quite often recommended other schools to people when it is clear that Tulane is not a fit for them. My point is that I don’t make these suggestions either lightly or out of pure loyalty. I hope I am, instead, making reasonable recommendations and making sure students think about all the possibilities.</p>
<p>So one more thing just to be clear (I hope):</p>
<p>
If you read my posts carefully, I never was speaking from this premise. I asked the question from the start if what she might be thinking about is a specific area with a CS emphasis. I never said or thought or suggested that a true CS major could be done at Tulane right now.</p>
<p>Why did I even think that she might be talking about an applied area rather than taking what she said at face value? Two reasons. 1) I would have found it a bit odd that an intelligent person, which she clearly is, would have gone to Tulane wanting to be a CS major knowing that they don’t offer the major (and since she was on CC last April I am assuming, at my own peril, that she saw those threads about CS at the time); and 2) even if 1 is incorrect and she just didn’t realize the situation, I have found that many people posting on here don’t reveal all the important details right away, that it takes some discussion and probing. That turned out to be useful in this case, even if the final result is that she needs to go elsewhere. At least she will have been able to discuss it with the right people at Tulane instead of just having someone on CC tell her “Oh, you just have to transfer, there is no way you can do that at Tulane”. OK?</p>
<p>I am an engineer and a graduate of an engineering school that had a computer science department. The only computer science course I took was a freshman 1 credit hour introduction to Fortran. I did lots of programing and probably had at least one major computing project due each semester, but that was all taught by my engineering faculty. I went back and looked at a current catalog for the school, and that remains true. I found a couple of degree programs that had a required computer science class, but most had some variation of a computational methods course taught from within the department.</p>
<p>FC,
I’m sure you’ll outlast me on this board</p>
<p>One more time: I’m objecting to your word choice. “at least as valuable”, and “at least as strong an academic base”, and “actually be ahead of the curve” in the context you used them are just not true. You could have made your suggestion without the exaggerations.</p>
<p>I didn’t tell the OP to transfer or not transfer, I suggested investigating the details and asking specific questions. I also pointed out that there are a lot of schools out there where it is possible to do both CS and another area, and probably some where he or she could be just as happy as at Tulane. This is the same advice I would give to my own kid.</p>
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Most likely. I believe you are the one being a bit disingenuous:</p>
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Sounds like a pretty definitive telling of a direction to me. If you are now saying that based on the further information she imparted to us that you agree with what I am saying, then fine. That’s good we agree on something.</p>
<p>Transferring from a school where you know you are very happy with the general atmosphere is not trivial. “Probably” is just that. There are a ton of pitfalls and uncertainties involved in this as well. Attending a certain university is far more than just the major you are in. There are opportunities in grad school or using other avenues to pick up specific areas of knowledge as Parent9 points out, as well as based on my own experience and that of literally hundreds of others I know that have specialized in certain areas after graduation. The opportunity to attend a school you love in a city as unique as New Orleans is an educational opportunity that may never come along again. It is for this and many other reasons that I counseled this student to exhaust every option at Tulane first.</p>
<p>BTW, in the context I made those statements you object to, which is combining a strong foundation in the fundamental area of interest (linguistics as it turned out) with being able to explore enough CS to give her a decent ability in the area and preparing her for further exploration, I stand by them. One can only do so much as an undergrad in an area as complex as computational linguistics.</p>
<p>Of course there are schools that have far more expertise in this particular area. The issue here seems to me to be if Tulane has enough to prepare her for the next steps in her life, whatever she sees those being. Only she can know that, after having the discussions with the right Tulane people. That is why I say generalizations become useless now.</p>
<p>FC,
Once again, you have avoided the issue. You know the “at least as good as”, the “ahead of the curve” stuff that just isn’t true. </p>
<p>The OPs original message said “wants to major in CS”. Even you have stated that you wouldn’t recommend Tulane for a CS major. My advice of doing research and asking specific questions still stands. </p>
<p>Tulane is indeed a fine school, New Orleans is a great city, the OP loves it, etc. etc. But it isn’t the only school where the OP, or any other student, could be be happy, and I don’t see that it offers any extra special super duper unique opportunities in most fields, although it does in a few. The student experience in New Orleans is great, but it isn’t all THAT special, IMO. Of course transferring has a cost and there are unknowns any time one makes a change in life, but students tranfer all that time, and it isn’t this big scary ordeal with a “ton of pitfalls and uncertainties”. Every individual needs to carefully investigate the options and weigh the costs and benefits for themselves in light of their own situation, but I would certainly want my own kid to transfer if necessary to meet his academic needs rather than stay put because of fear and inertia, or because he liked his social life.</p>
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I would really prefer it if you didn’t presume to know what I think is true and what isn’t. I will extend you the same courtesy. That is just rude. I didn’t avoid the issue in the least, I took it head on. I have explained the context of my statement numerous times. If you don’t get it, I cannot help that.</p>
<p>As far as her original message, that is at least half the point, if not more. I suspected, intuited, whatever you want to call it that there might be more to it. Hence I probed rather than just telling her to transfer, which you did despite your original denial. That led to uncovering more information which allowed for a much more nuanced and complete recommendation. It might not change the outcome, but at least she will know she left no stone unturned. If you object to that, I can’t help that either.</p>
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Ah yes, and guess what? On that particular matter neither your opinion nor mine count for squat. For me it was a very large part of my life and extremely significant. Only she can decide how much to weigh that in her decision.</p>
<p>If you want to PM me to continue this, I have no objection. But you are adding nothing to this at this point.</p>