Turning the Titanic: A victory for education reformers in Illinois?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Mini, we could spend hours debating the greatness of the welfare system in Europe, and discuss how wonderful a socialist system is. We can all look with envy on how they finance their education, social security, health care, and other social programs. </p>

<p>The value added tax is 25 percent, the maximum rate allowed for European Union nations, but there are preferential rates for several items.</p>

<p>Then, we have to realize that such expenses are covered by extremely high levies and contribution on wages and a very high tax rate. Payroll taxes are a significant burden, totaling nearly 40 percent of income, including a 32.28 percent tax imposed on employers. These taxes finance retirement, sick leave, unemployment, parental leave, and other programs.</p>

<p>Sweden celebrated its own version of tax cuts for the wealty. The top marginal income tax rate is now about a very generous 57 percent. While punitive, the top rate used to be nearly 90 percent in the late 1970s.</p>

<p>And after all of that, we can look at the $9.00 per gallon cost of gasoline. I have long stated that we should add at least 2.00 per gallon onto our cost and use every penny of that to finance new energy infrastructure, but that is another story.</p>

<p>In the end, we cannot look at a system such as Sweden and look at the substantial returns citizens get on their taxes without measuring first what those represent. As every system, there are winners and losers. Welfare recipients love the system; young entrepreneurs a lot less. </p>

<p>It is a system where there are few real differences between the salaries of a surgeon and a kindergarten teacher. Perhaps, it a system that is better for almost everyone, and the ones who do not like it too much can look at the sunny and rocky beaches of Monte Carlo.</p>

<p>However, once we finish looking at the best attributes of such a system, we can turn to the possibilities of transplanting that to the United States. </p>

<p>Does a negative odd exist?</p>

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<p>But we can compare our test scores? I don’t know how to make an apples to apples comparison among countries, or states, or school districts, but we are spending a great deal of money and educational time to get the scores themselves.</p>

<p>I teach special ed in a blue-collar, 1300-student high school. I don’t know what Finnish teachers see every day, but I can tell you that on a roster of 25 15-year-old students, I have one who has done absolutely no schoolwork this year because she spent the year in rehab for her drug addiction; one who shut down because her parents had her boyfriend thrown in jail for corruption of a minor; one who works very hard to prove to her mentally ■■■■■■■■ parent that it is important for her to graduate high school and not quit to work at Walmart as soon as she legally can (but it won’t be good enough). And so on.</p>

<p>Sorry to cloud the issue with facts, but teachers don’t teach facts or subjects, my friends, they teach children, who are much harder to quantify.</p>

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<p>“Mini, we could spend hours debating the greatness of the welfare system in Europe, and discuss how wonderful a socialist system is. We can all look with envy on how they finance their education, social security, health care, and other social programs.”</p>

<p>As I said, what I wrote was descriptive, not prescriptive. If you want to look at how they do it, then one has to look at how they do it. And then decide whether that’s what you want. If you prefer a large penal system employing lots of people, and require lots of docile low-income service workers who won’t demand much, Sweden is not the way to go. If you believe that life has to be the war of all against all, again Sweden is not the way to go. And (as I suggested), Sweden can actually spend less (last time I looked) on education and get the results they do because they spend money - lots of money - on other stuff. Their foster care system is just one very good example. They expect less from schools, and (perhaps) get better results because of it.</p>

<p>None of this has anything to do with “education reform”, villifying hardworking, unionized, and tenured school teachers, calling their leaders crooks, or finding a way to make a profit off serving children. </p>

<p>I did have the opportunity to spend time in Sweden two years ago, much of it among entrepreneurs and physicians. I didn’t hear much in the way of complaints. They were making money. They weren’t leaving the country. Life was good. </p>

<p>Works for them. Does our system work for us?</p>

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<p>Okay, I couldn’t help myself, so I am going to add my two cents. The tenure and seniority system is a disgrace. No one should be guaranteed lifetime job security, with pay raises tied to longevity. Last year, there were a series of articles in the LA times (a liberal newspaper) examining the tenure system. I don’t have an exact memory of this, but something less than 1% of all teachers had been dismissed in the entire LA Unified School District in the last 20 years. There were legions of cases where teachers had been accused of physical and sexual assault. Although they were not allowed in the classroom, they still were drawing their salary because of the multi-year laborious process of removing them. If a teacher is incompetent, they need to find another career; instead we now have a system where the unions will fight tooth and nail to thwart any reasonable attempt to remove them. I don’t care what any union defender says, this is indefensible.</p>

<p>As for emulating the social welfare system of European countries, when someone can tell me how we are going to pay for it, I may be receptive. I am sure I don’t have to remind people here that we have a $1.6 trillion annual deficit and a total debt of around $16 trillion. If we don’t seriously deal with this problem, someday we will face an economic crisis that will make this last one look like child’s play. Furthermore, from all that I hear the situation in Europe is far from ideal. For example, France has a large immigrant community that has periodically rioted because of very poor living conditions. Greece which has an extensive social welfare system is now an economic basket case that is currently suffering for their many years of fiscal mismanagement and irresponsibility. I don’t think we want to go down this road, although that seems to be the path were on.</p>

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<p>I have to agree that the Swedish detour into welfare states has nothing to do with education reform. I wonder how this discussion veered in that direction! </p>

<p>For what it is worth, I note that this must be the 3d or 4th time you use the words “hardworking, unionized, and tenured school teachers.” They must be dear to the heart, both the words and the people. Well, perhaps not enough to trust the education of your own children to them for the duration, but that must be a personal choice and a matter of opinion. Just as personal as our individual opinions are about teachers and unions. </p>

<p>For another what is worth, I believe that you make little effort to understand that one can be highly critical of a system that permits and encourages fiscal and performance abuses, and not be critical of all teachers. There is a world of difference between criticizing the union leaders and vilifying the entire teaching profession. As I have written before, teachers, just as students and families, are the victims of the current over-politicized “system,” and are especially victimized by the actions of their leaders. As far as being called crooks, the best way for union leaders --and active members-- to stop that in the tracks would be to stop acting like crooks and goons. Well, of course, you might believe that passing fake doctors (and accepting them as they did in Wisconsin during that abject show of power) is totally acceptable. </p>

<p>Lastly, your expressed disdain for making a profit serving children is quite ironic in a sentence that amounts to a spirited defense of unions leaders, as those people could be poster children for profiteering, self-dealing, self-interest, and self-preservation.</p>

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<p>I think it is reasonable to say that profiting off the backs of children and their education is not among my highest social priorities.</p>

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<p>Yet, you repeatedly write in defense of the profiteers.</p>

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<p>(Others might be interested in why, after all this rigamarole, I nonetheless homeschooled kids, and believe in homeschooling. Well, as it turns out, it has nothing (or little) to do with any of this. In short form, I believe in the “Montessori Secret” (as above) and believe in it enough to act upon it.)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the link to the SSR site- my D’s school does this- but not many public classrooms do.
[Beverly</a> CLeary will be 95!](<a href=“Dear Day”>Dear Day)
REading must keep you young! :)</p>

<p>Re tenure
My H works at an union job where they layoff by seniority- however, he has not always had seniority & his industry has weathered many layoffs. IN those situations, his superiors have found ways to keep him, because he is an excellent worker. However, in the same arena, they can’t pay him what he is worth, because he has topped out his job classification. It’s probable that in a non union setting he would still have his job- & be a higher pay grade than he was 10 years ago.</p>

<p>I believe teachers should not have their jobs threatened just because reformers sweep through who perhaps would prefer less expensive & younger teachers, or those who are more malleable , but I also believe that a teacher should not be protected just for the sake of seniority & that parent/student & peer reviews are important as well, not just expecting to kick out students with certain test scores.</p>

<p>Sorry to cloud the issue with facts, but teachers don’t teach facts or subjects, my friends, they teach children, who are much harder to quantify.
ITA</p>

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<p>The Duck falls.</p>

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<p>Some of us can teach the why, some can show the why, and others don’t know why. Some can discover the why. </p>

<p>This parent set discovered that the Kid, could, thankfully, discover the Why, his own way. Each person must discover his own way to the whys. Teachers-Instructors can show the techniques and lead the way. </p>

<p>Now we hope that he can discover the Why of a GF, or not.</p>

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<p>Not in our district. The pattern I observed, over and over, was to hire fresh-out grads, keep them 1-2 years, then lay them off, then hire more fresh-out grads. Obviously without tenure you would have a very young, inexperienced teaching staff.</p>

<p>Maybe it’s because I have a very hardworking sister who teaches, but I tend to blame lazy parents and lazy administrators for many of the problems in schools. Teachers should get plenty of support when kids act up (as mini states, don’t have schools do the work of other social agencies), and parents should do far, far more with their kids at home.</p>

<p>That said, I do feel that the bar went lower and lower as my kid progressed through grade school. There was lots of pressure on the K,1,2 teachers, then it sort of leveled off to what I have to call low expectations in middle school. In high school the kids were tracked (effectively) with varied expectations. There was less pressure to maximize each kid’s potential and more to get everyone through at some middling level. That I found disappointing.</p>

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<p>What are some examples of this?</p>

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<p>Get yourself a good history of Joe McCarthy.</p>

<p>And then you can find all kinds of interesting stuff here:</p>

<p>[UIUC</a> AAUP](<a href=“http://www.aaup-ui.org/Documents/DevelopmentStrategies/recruitment-letter.html]UIUC”>UIUC AAUP)</p>

<p>Without tenure, teachers and faculty can be fired for virtually anything (including things having nothing to do with teaching quality, such as sexual orientation.)</p>

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<p>I actually can’t continue to comment on this thread without ranging out into all sorts of poltical things about the way we spend our money as a nation. </p>

<p>So, I’ll just say I’ve found some of the ideas on here rather interesting and sign off.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, you would likely not have been able to do this if you lived in Sweden (or anywhere else in most of Western Europe) since it is practically illegal there.</p>

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<p>Given that most of us in the private commercial world don’t have tenure and there isn’t an epidemic of firings due factors unconnected with the quality of work, why should teachers be treated differently? It appears the abuse caused by tenure is far worse than the abuse prevented by tenure.</p>

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<p>Is the board that hires and fires employees elected officials who require zero experience in the management of a company? That’s what you have with education-- a school board who is not required to have a bit of experience in operating a school district. Politics like crazy!</p>

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<p>Yes, Mini would be ecstatic about the ease to open a private school in countries such as Belgium or the Netherlands. A private school open to all religions, managed by the private sector, but funded by the government. Countries that benefit from an “intelligent” constitution have long enjoyed a system that places the obligation of funding education to the government, but does not give the government a monopolistic right to run the schools. In Belgium, this constitutional protection has thwarted the repeated efforts by unions (who else?) to displace the much more efficient and effective catholic schools. Teachers, paid by the government, can teach at privately run schools or at government schools. </p>

<p>Come to think about, it would be nice for Obama to extend the control of the federal government by asborbing the entire public education system. Would not do much good for eradicating tenure, but it would do wonders for collective bargaining agreements! </p>

<p>American Federation of Government Teachers sounds nice!</p>

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<p>If you work in private industry and you do a good job, they you are an asset to your company. Your good work helps to provide income to the company, either directly or indirectly. However, no matter how good of a teacher I am, there is no way that my good work can increase the money coming into my public school district. Therefore, there is no incentive for districts to keep highly paid teachers without union protections. It is basically up to the will of the school board as they try to balance quality vs. the pressure from tax payers to keep taxes low. Non-profit governmental organizations just don’t work the same way as private organizations do. Trying to make them work the same is silly. They serve different purposes and work under different sets of rules.</p>

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<p>Teachers need protection from the crazies - crazy parents, crazy school board members, crazy county council members, crazy students, crazy fellow teachers, crazy principals, crazy administrators. Get it? Education makes people crazy.</p>