<p>Makes going for those state honors programs with large merit awards worth looking at doesn't it?</p>
<p>Doesn't this all come back to the same thing, that most people can't meet their EFC? Especially in high cost of living places?</p>
<p>The only news seems to be that they should stop applying for outside scholarships and leave them for those who don't qualify for a cent in need based aid!</p>
<p>zagat--the problem with that is that many outside scholarships are partly based on need!</p>
<p>Isn't life strange??</p>
<p>I really think it's time we rally for college tuition to be 100 percent tax deductible. That would help a little anyway, and it would help across the board.</p>
<p>curmudg,
Can it get any worse? Our EFC is ridiculous, too. Neither my husband and I nor my son should be allowed to assume the kind of debt that some institutions would require. So my son has optimistically been applying for outside scholarships. Do I understand you correctly that if he is fortunate enough to win an outside scholarship, any school that has awarded grant money will take it back in the amount of the scholarship won? That doesn't seem fair. If the school planned to give grant money, any outside scholarship money won by my son should be used to defray the huge amount of money we are expected to pay. If he wins an outside scholarship and the school essentially steals it away from him, I give up.</p>
<p>texastaximom,
I totally agree with you and don't consider any money I have to borrow to be true "aid". Heck, I could borrow money for a new car. Likewise, money that my son earns through work is not really aid. He works now. Only grant and scholarship money is truly aid, IMO.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, the picture can be that bad or worse, yes. Did you see the posts from kids accepted to ivy leagues schools with a family EFC of zero given $6-8K in loans? Over 4 years that is over the amount that the federal govt will give in loans. It is a tough situation, and your D is fortunate in that she has a family behind her. Some kids deal with this with no support from mom or dad. </p>
<p>The way this works is that you pick a variety of schools from those that provide 100% of need to those with merit awards where the student is in the upper 5-10%. Don't remember where you live, but I think you may have the geographics in your favor, and she does have good academic stats. She is one of the lucky ones. The kids who don't do as well in school or don't test well aren't going to get any where nearly enough and if they do not have the discipline to pull it together at a community college, they are done. </p>
<p>The basic tenet of federal methodology in providing for college is that it is primarily the parent's responsibility until the student is age 24 with some exception (marriage, having a dependent, armed forces, court order). Just as you are responsible for the highschool, you are for the college. Financial aid is the last resort and is limited. The EFC is what the family is expected to pay. If the family cannot get loans and has no way to pay or just refuses to do so, then that is the end of that option for college. </p>
<p>Now, on the other hand, there are many colleges out there that want students, and will come up with money for good students. They may even give more money than needed and not reduce the financial aid by the merit award, but they are primarily the colleges you don't hear as much about. This is where casting the wide net come into play. And then you might get lucky and get a generous package. Most of the time, you get just enough you can pay, if you really stretch, go into debt and then you have to feel lucky about it. </p>
<p>The idea of making an adult in nearly every other form of contract law dependent on his parents has been a vent of mine for years. I don't even see how it is legal. You don't pick your parents. They cannot intercede and have no rights in anything else in your life from your health records, to criminal proceedings, nothing--but they are responsible for your college payments. Some powerful lobbying here. It all stems from our basic philosophy that college education is by no means a right. Any more than private schools, or putting a kid in a decent public school. If you think about it, it is unfair that a kid who lives in a horrid school district is stuck at a dangerous,miserable , underfund school because that is where his parents live. The same thinking applies , in a sense, for college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If he wins an outside scholarship and the school essentially steals it away from him, I give up.
[/quote]
I hate to tell you but....if he's getting need based, it goes away one for one. I agree with whoever said it can help change the packaging as far as letting it go against self help first, but yep. It's stole-d, bigger than Dallas.</p>
<p>Schools have different policies on outside scholarships. Some schools share the benefit 50/50 - not a bad idea, as it provides some motivation for the students to seek such aid by completing applications, writing essays, etc.</p>
<p>The fallacy of including loans as part of "meeting need" is ludicrous, particularly when schools talk about "actual price" vs. "sticker price", and use the value of the loans in calculating the supposed actual price. If you believe that, I can sell you a $40K automobile for an actual price of $1000! (Yes, there will be some loans involved to arrive at the actual price. ;))</p>
<p>Actually, Curmedgeon, I don't think your D's outlook is so bleak. I think it will work out, as you know the worst possible scenarios and will insure against them. There are those who do blithely enter this admissions process with no idea and are incredulous how it works as they are in the midst of it.</p>
<p>Our family income is roughly (gross) about 15% above the national median, which is just under $50k. So we are to the upper side of middle income. We are NOT poor. Where my d. is attending, between merit aid and need-based aid, and a paid research assistantship in the first two years, what we received was well over full tuition. No loans. When she received an outside scholarship ($1,500 for each of four years), they reduced the expected student contribution accordingly. They didn't "steal" a penny of it..Five other schools, some need-blind, and some with merit, provided awards that, while not the same, were very generous and doable. In no case did they require d. to take out more than $17.9k in loans.</p>
<p>Others can complain. We can't. The cost to us is coming in at roughly half the state university, including coast to coast travel. D will spend a year in Florence at the same expense. She has an automatic paid summer internship, and is likely to receive more funds for this summer's work building houses in India. She will graduate with no loans (we hope.)</p>
<p>Thanks Jami, I now understand the only workable strategy. Our kids need to marry before applying to college.</p>
<p>Thread after thread keeps coming back to the same thing. High end private colleges are just not affordable for the middle class. The whole notion that financial aid bridges needs has been fully debunked for me. So why do we keep rehashing this? It seems that a lot of pain would be avoided if it was just understoof that the options are:</p>
<p>1) You can afford to pay in full</p>
<p>2) You are poor enough to get comprehensive aid</p>
<p>3) The college is far enough below where the child can otherwise
get in for them to make it worth his while to attend.</p>
<p>jamimom, I'm to a certain extent playing the role of the unknowing parent tonight as I have have fairly carefully researched most of this before, and will again. Although, I'll admit the loan part is news to me,too. LOL. </p>
<p>I got an pm from a really nice kid who urged me to push this thread as hard as I could because she thought most parents were clueless about the points I was raising, including hers until they got her aid packages. Now she is very disappointed and the folks didn't have a clue. She said ,I'm paraphrasing, "Those damn books tell you, do the work.Deny yourself any fun. Get admission to your dream school. There will always be a way to pay And it's not true." She'd really like someone to give a fair and accurate report on how this works to counteract the crap that is out there giving people false hope. </p>
<p>I told her I'd push it, and to hug her dad, cause he's dying a little more every time she looks sad. I know I do.</p>
<p>"Thread after thread keeps coming back to the same thing. High end private colleges are just not affordable for the middle class."</p>
<p>I don't know. Worked for us. And we are well above the median income.</p>
<p>What if your student is lucky and get a full ride somewhere. Then later you discover he has won outside scholarship money. Can you use it to cover living expenses? Does the school take it? How does that work?</p>
<p>Everyone seems to disagree with FAFSA when it comes to demontrated need. </p>
<p>Loans....that's why you fill out the FAFSA, CSS and send your tax returns when you apply for financial aid. They figure out what you can qualify for (like being prequalified to buy a house), and then they give you various loan options. You don't have to take any school loans/federal loans offered if you want to pay another way. Students loans are considered part of the financial aid. </p>
<p>Let's say that Vandy is a 100% need school, and they have calculated the family contribution to be 15K. (I have no idea if it is, but I'm just trying to give an example)</p>
<p>Cost = 45K
Merit award =20K
leaving 10K balance to reach EFC</p>
<p>possible fill ins:
2625 K Stafford
2000 K Perkins or other school loan (could be another type of loan)
2200 Work study (varies..I've seen 900-2200 this year)
3K University "grant"</p>
<p>balance is now 15K to be met by family (savings, PLUS loan, etc...)</p>
<p>Yes, that package is considered as meeting your need. </p>
<p>The amount of work study, grant, and loan depends on the school, how much they want your child, how much they typically spend on financial aid...many things. She could end up with 5K in grant, or 7K in grant and just one loan, or a smaller amount of work study. You just never know until the aid arrives.</p>
<p>Okay so are you following me?</p>
<p>Fin Aid total for the above would say:
Fin Aid award = 30K (20K merit/2200 work study/3K grant/4625 loan)
Family contribution = 15K </p>
<p>and then an enclosure with all the ways you can beg, borrow and steal the amount.</p>
<p>Mini--same here. Private has been less costly for us. We must be in the right income bracket.</p>
<p>Mini, you put some interesting facts on the table. The point is that what is truly middle class, in the $50K range, qualifies for near full aid. However, in the places where many highly educated people live, $100K leaves you living modestly and not able to save for college or much else. </p>
<p>Those having to tell their kids they can't go to private colleges are in generally making far more than $50K. I would guess they are mostly making between $80,000 and $200,000. To do what they were educated to do they need to live in places where housing is expensive. To send their kids to good public schools they need to live in good neighborhoods. Or they can send their kids to private schools (about $24K/each in major cities) and live in still high priced, more mediocre areas.</p>
<p>We all grew up thinking if we worked hard we could have a solid middle class life as our parents did. Here in CA we have a good example in that the UCs were pocket change for our parents and are major expenses for us even at half the cost of top privates.</p>
<p>It's a very different reality than when we went to college, and I think that is what's at the heart of the anger and misunderstanding surrounding how college gets paid for.</p>
<p>
Actually. You're right. D has a two wonderful safeties I can afford and she loves. One with $16K in merit guaranteed on a COA of $32 and one that is just cheap, $17k COA. </p>
<p>Point is both schools are almost 200 points below D's SAT (projected from her top 2% PSAT, top 1% PLAN), and a full 1/2 a grade point below her GPA. One is a third tier state flagship uni , one is lower second tier LAC. I consider myself very fortunate to have them in the bag-so to speak. My goal is to somehow ratchet her up to a school that will challenge and excite her even more. D is well aware of our plan of action and has started researching the numbers before anything else. I couldn't do this any other way. She's smarter than I am. LOL.</p>
<p>Our kid's school, stated tuition, R & B, at time of admission notification and merit award, was based on the current year, NOT freshman year. In June, we got a nice thin envelop notifying us that tuition, R & B, will increase ~4% (can't remember the exact number.) Each year since we got the same notice, ( 3 so far.)</p>
<p>Now, back to the regularly scheduled, lament. </p>
<p>Thankyou.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Loans....that's why you fill out the FAFSA, CSS and send your tax returns when you apply for financial aid. They figure out what you can qualify for (like being prequalified to buy a house), and then they give you various loan options
[/quote]
But what about this concept of parent loans? And what do my tax returns tell the school about my daughter's or my ability to repay those loans without knowing my debt structure? And for the final Q, who told them they could do a credit check on me or my daughter? I have yet to see that in a form, a release of credit info. Is it in there somewhere and I didn't see it? I've pulled and filled out all the forms as if D was applying this year.</p>