<p>I am in LOVE with the University of Chicago, but I'm worried because of their whole academic system and shiz. I've heard it's really hard to be pre-med there, and that bad marks are typical for first and second year, which is reeeally bad for med school, as you can imagine. I've also heard that grad schools add extra points to your GPA from UChic (not sure if it's true), but still. Is it good for pre-med? <em>crosses fingers</em></p>
<p>I started a thread on this a while back, and Chicago has been in flux recently with more selective admissions, but I just don’t know if I would recommend Chicago over its close peers (Brown, Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, etc.) for a student INTENT on becoming a doctor and INTENT on going to a top top medical school. </p>
<p>Before elaborating on this, I want to emphasize, if you are INTENT on becoming a doctor, and, similarly, INTENT on getting into the best medical school possible, more than just being a pre-med and receiving a very good liberal arts education, then I don’t think Chicago is a good fit. I’ll elaborate on this more below, but before moving on, it’s important for readers to have a sense of their own goals. Just briefly, if you really want a great liberal arts education and you want a school with a good medical school placement record, then yes, Chicago is a good choice. If your goal is to ABSOLUTELY maximize your shot of admission to a top medical school, then no, I would not recommend it.</p>
<p>I say this for a variety of reasons. First off, while Chicago does NOT engage in GPA “deflation” any more, and the average GPA is around a 3.4 or so, there really aren’t many “fluff” classes at Chicago, where you can blow off the class and still get an A. To maintain their sanity, many high-strung pre-meds take some “easier” humanities classes to boost their science GPA. At Chicago, you have to EARN B+s or maybe A-s in the humanities courses - they’re rigorous. </p>
<p>Another issue I’d have with the Chicago pre-med experience is that I don’t believe Chicago students experience the socialization that leads to a maximization of medical school acceptance success. I’ve gotten to know scores of people at a few elite medical schools, Chicago Med (Pritzker) being one, and one of the factors that always shocked me - especially at Chicago - was the stark difference between the undergraduate population and the students at Chicago Med. At least when I was an undergrad at Chicago, the undergrad was a very egg-headed, nerdy place, and I assumed that medical students, with all the pre-reqs and tests they needed to take just to get into medical school, would be a supremely egg-headed bunch.</p>
<p>This could not be farther from the truth. The Chicago undergrads were the nerds boasting about quiz bowl competitions, and the medical students were the swimmers from Dartmouth or the soccer players from Duke or the ice hockey players from Harvard. I may be a bit extreme here, but I was often struck by, well, how sort of socially attuned and on-point the medical students were. They were really quite distinct from the Chicago undergrad atmosphere. Also, again, it makes sense - I’d rather have my doctor be a photogenic, gregarious, warm individual then the nerd who can recite portions of Plato’s books verbatim (several of my Chicago undergrad friends could do this). You’re just going to find more of the former at Dartmouth or Williams, and more of the latter at Chicago. </p>
<p>Other medical schools seem to be the same way, and again, it makes sense. In a world of extremely selective admissions, soft qualities begin to matter more. If an interview panel is deciding between the eggheaded Chicago nerd with a 34 MCAT or the amazingly photogenic Dartmouth swimmer with the same stats, the interview panel may go with the latter. It’s just interview bias. Students at Princeton or Dartmouth or Williams experience a type of socialization that matches them quite well for an endeavor like medical school, whereas the Chicago style of socialization really maximizes a student’s chances for entry into a PhD program.</p>
<p>There’s nothing at Chicago that makes the school “pre-med friendly.” The pre-med advising is solid, yes there is a bit of a GPA boost (0.1, roughly), but, well… Med school requirements are hard enough as it is, before you drop the challenge of a Chicago core curriculum on top of everything. Of course, if you’re intent on a great liberal arts education, by all means, Chicago may be the best in the business at this. If your intent is to try and go to a top top medical school, I don’t really see what advantage Chicago offers over Dartmouth, Brown, etc. </p>
<p>Final note, that may change in the years ahead. Especially with a new admissions director at the helm and more emphasis on pre-professional work at Chicago, I wouldn’t be surprised if Chicago improved on the pre-med front in the years ahead. Nevertheless, to compete on equal footing with the schools that really tailor their curriculum to maximizing med school acceptance, Chicago would really need to undergo a paradigm shift. I don’t see that happening. If you’re intent on a top medical school and you get into Chicago and one of its peers, I can’t make an argument for choosing Chicago over the other schools. It’s not like you’ll get a bad liberal arts education at Dartmouth or Brown, and you will probably have better medical school options and a better lifestyle at these other schools. </p>
<p>My pre-med friends at Chicago worked really, really, really hard, and on aggregate, I highly doubt they did as well as their cohorts at D, Brown, etc. I’d imagine this is probably still the case today. The Chicago curriculum is not at all structured in a way to facilitate success for admission to a top top medical school. To give you a brief sense of the situation, most of my undergrad pre-med friends at Chicago are doctors now. To a man/woman, they are greatly appreciative of the education they received at Chicago, and happy with the experience, grueling as it was. At the same time, my friends, especially the scant couple who got into top top medical schools, feel they gained admission “in spite of” rather than “facilitated by” the structure present at Chicago. Most of my friends went on to ok medical schools and are now perfectly happy doctors content with the education received at Chicago, but I’d highly doubt any of them feel Chicago helped them with ADMISSION to medical school. Chicago certainly helps in PREPARATION for medical school demands, but I haven’t heard many say it helps for ADMISSION.</p>
<p>Cue7: Okay, applicants for med school need to be “photogenic, gregarious, warm individuals”? That makes some sense. It is still not clear though why a “photogenic, gregarious, warm individual” would “benefit from going to [UChicago’s] close peers (Brown, Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, etc.).” Is it only because UChicago doesn’t “engage in grade inflation?” Isn’t it because in general the “photogenic, gregarious, warm individuals” tend to favor Brown, Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, etc. when chosing a college in the first place? In other words: Isn’t it because there has already been some form of natural selection at the end of HS? Because if this is the case, it is not the education at UChicago that is standing in the way. It is caused by UChicago having less college students with the right personality to meet the requirements of med schools. But this doesn’t mean that on an individual level a student with the ‘right’ personal qualifications for med school, i.e. a student who is a “photogenic, gregarious, warm individual”, would be damaged by UChicago’s rigirous program. Intelligence and “photogenic, gregarious, warm” are not mutually exclusive. And for eggheads med school will always remain a dream irrespective of whether they went to the college of UChicago or its “close peers (Brown, Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, etc.).” (I hope it is clear. I’m not a native English speaker)</p>
<p>Cue7, I would appreciate if you’d keep the generalizations of Uchicago students to a minimum. I am a first-year pre-med, doing quite well here GPA-wise, even by med school standards. I can’t recite any Plato, I have no interest in quiz bowl, and I’d like to think I’m pretty “warm and gregarious”. </p>
<p>jiggle, don’t let the fear of low grades stop you from coming. The average GPA here really isn’t lower than average GPA anywhere else, and besides, all the science classes are separated out into different levels so nonmajors don’t have to compete with majors, i.e. chem majors take Honors Gen Chem and pre-meds take Intro Gen Chem or Comp. Gen Chem. So you don’t even have to compete with the kids who truly love the subject. And honestly, if you can’t handle gen chem at Chicago you probably can’t handle it at Penn or Columbia either. If you do turn down Chicago because you’re scared of getting a low GPA, you should be turning it down for a school an academic tier down or so. </p>
<p>There are things that you will have to do that won’t fit the Uchicago spirit, like take easy classes. There’s definitely a bit of luck involved. Shoot me a PM if you have any specific questions.</p>
<p>I have no dog in this hunt, but I submit that Cue7 is one of the more thoughtful, nuanced contributors to this forum, and is a HUGE supporter of the University of Chicago. He/she also has a few years of experience. Although the University may be in transition, many of Cue7’s views remain word.</p>
<p>As to the topic, if you are 100% certain you want to attend med school, and will never change your mind, you should attend State U (where As are easier). If you are realistic and understand that, like most pre-meds, you might change your mind, U of C is as good as it gets.</p>
<p>First off, I want to apologize if I offended anyone, and I did not mean for my post to be offensive in any way.</p>
<p>Having said that, maybe the responses to my post are a sign of the changing times? I essentially stated that, on aggregate, Chicago students aren’t as “warm & gregarious” as students elsewhere. Sorry to be blunt, but I almost laughed when I saw Zephrya’s response, because even just a few years ago, no one would bat an eyelash at the assertion that Chicago is NOT a “warm and gregarious” place. When I was at Chicago, no one, NO ONE in a million years would use this words to describe Chicago, and no one really doubted that, well, Brown Dartmouth etc etc. were filled with students who - at the least - didn’t seem to have the angst that characterized many of my peers at Chicago. </p>
<p>Zephrya, so I apologize, but please note that, coming from my association with the U of C (graduating in the 90s), saying Chicago is not warm & gregarious is not a provocative statement in any way. Has Chicago changed enough to create a crop of pre-meds that will change the placement found at a Dart or Brown? Chicago is famously closed off about this sort of information. A while back, I was trying to find pre-law stats for Chicago, and they’re just not out there. Other schools have their pre-law stats on the web, Chicago does not, and they won’t release them without an in-person appearance. I’m assuming med school is the same way.</p>
<p>Now, having said that, I don’t think anything in my post was that inaccurate. The Chicago curriculum is not designed to facilitate entry into a top medical school, it’s designed to challenge its undergrads. So Zephrya, if you’re doing great, that’s great, and I wish you all the best. Nevertheless, you may be an exception to the general trend at Chicago, or, perhaps more likely, Chicago still on aggregate cannot produce the amount of top medical school applicant talent that its immediate peers can. </p>
<p>TaiTai - Sure, there may be some self-selection present, but schools also play a powerful, meaningful role in molding its students. So if you compare the eating-club culture at Princeton, with its established hierarchies and the like, and compare that with the completely laissez-faire attitude at Chicago, differences may begin to emerge following years of acculturation in these two different social settings. Just up front, Dart, Princeton, etc. have much higher numbers of reasonably smart athletes, a group med schools tend to like quite a bit, so that helps them in the process. Also, at least when I was at Chicago, there was almost a subliminal training - across all disciplines - preparing people for PhD programs. That’s pretty much the goal of the college - to prepare scholars, and the school is tailored to doing that. At Princeton, Dartmouth, etc. 4 years in a “work hard, play hard” atmosphere may lend itself better to the med school world. If you fit that Princeton or Dart mold, 4 years there will simply accentuate those traits, whereas at Chicago, you might swim against the grain more. </p>
<p>Again, this isn’t a sociological study by any means, just observations I’ve had since I first noticed the STARK, STARK difference between Chicago undergrads and Pritzker students. The difference between Pritzker students and, say, the the students I met while I spent a week at Princeton crashing with a good friend of mine, however, were not nearly as stark. </p>
<p>Again, I don’t mean to imply that by going to Chicago, you’re going to turn into an egghead or forsake any chance of going to Hopkins Med. I’m simply saying that med school admissions - and med school classes specifically - certainly don’t tend to mirror what I think of as the traditional Chicago undergrad student body. AGAIN, maybe this is changing, and maybe Chicago’s med school placement is now putting Harvard and Stanford to shame. Given how, no matter what reports may say, change tends to occur gradually, and given the type of training Chicago exercises for its undergrads, I doubt the statement above. </p>
<p>I have a feeling that if I went back to Chicago today, I’d be struck much more by the similarities rather than the differences.</p>
<p>Oh one other note, Zephrya - maybe this is different now, but when I was at U of C, the big “weed-out” year for pre-meds happened during 2nd year, when most students took Chem and O-Chem. Whereas biology wasn’t seen as tremendously difficult, and Physics had THREE tracks (Honors, regular, and then a “professional” track that was seen as easier and designed for pre-meds), Chem really only had TWO tracks, Honors Chem, which was known for being excruciatingly hard, and regular chem/o-chem, which was known for be extremely hard. </p>
<p>Are there more tracks in Chem at Chicago now? There was rumbling in the student body - and by some TAs I think - that chem was a sore point in the experience for Chicago pre-med students. Other schools have the 3-tiered structures Chicago has for physics, but for some reason the Chem dept refused to do this, thereby making life a lot tougher for Chicago undergrads. Maybe this is different now?</p>
<p>Oh, and about your assertion that, if you can’t hack Chem/Physics etc. at Chicago, you probably can’t hack these subjects at Columbia, Penn, etc., that may be the case, but most of my peers didn’t complain as much about the pre-med reqs (besides O-Chem). Mostly they complained about being pushed to the limit not just in science, but in their hum requirements or human being and citizen class or whatever. Struggling with science courses are one thing, but never being able to boost the GPA with classes in other disciplines began to wear on my peers.</p>
<p>They do have introductory chemistry now.</p>
<p>divinecomedy - pardon, I’m seeing three tracks for gen chem, but only 2 tracks for O-Chem:</p>
<p><a href=“http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/pdf_10/CHEM.pdf[/url]”>http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/pdf_10/CHEM.pdf</a></p>
<p>I think the two-track system for O-Chem would then still present much of the challenge many of my friends had for Chem and O-Chem. (Unless I’m mixing this up, and there were 3 tracks for Gen chem back in the day too - I was a social sciences concentrator at Chicago, and all I remember is that my pre-med friends complained - A LOT - about either Chem or O-Chem. Maybe it was O-Chem…)</p>
<p>When S1 was thinking of med school, he and other UofC students attended Harvard’s summer chemistry and o-chem programs, completing one year in eight weeks. They found it easier than Chicago’s offerings and more targeted toward meeting pre-med requirements. This was before the chemistry department took up the issue of premed chemistry. I don’t know what the resolution was, but I understand they were attempting to provide a sequence for pre-professional students.</p>
<p>Yah - idad, I don’t want to say it because I have no evidentiary basis for it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Chicago’s science courses are simply more rigorous than the classes offered at many of Chicago’s peer schools. Chicago professors certainly do not coddle their students - to the contrary, they seem to relish pushing their students to the hilt. That sort of culture just isn’t present at Dart or Brown, and it could very well make the sciences at Chicago even more challenging. If for nothing else the quarter (trimester) system makes the Chicago schedule more cramped and compact, and leads to a higher level of intensity - students are seemingly always gearing up for a midterm or a final. </p>
<p>Again, I don’t like to draw comparisons between peer schools, but students preparing to embark on the pre-med track at Chicago, with an eye to gaining acceptance from a top medical school, should know this: Be prepared for a very grueling journey that may have no parallel in American higher education.</p>
<p>zephyra: how many pre-meds would you think there are in your year?</p>
<p>As someone who’s at UChicago right now, I agree completely with Cue 7. If you know you’re pre-med and want to get into the best med schools, you should look somewhere else unless you really want the UChicago education. </p>
<p>Yes, being a pre-med is tough everywhere, but the science classes here are simply brutal. The grading is ridiculous. I have a friend who is in the Pre-Med Intro Chem class, and she told me that each section gives out only one or two As to the top students of the section.</p>
<p>Just to give you a sense of how hard the Pre-Med track is here, in the Class of 2013, the number of kids wanting to go pre-med has already gone down by more than half in less than a year. I personally know a dozen friends who used to be pre-med but changed their mind after a quarter of Intro Chem. Some are trying to transfer or take the O Chem somewhere else so that they can get a better grade (but the department RARELY grants permission to do so.)</p>
<p>Spark09223 - well, good to hear that, um, the more things change, the more they stay the same? Your description sounds exactly like the experience my pre-med friends had at Chicago. </p>
<p>What I never understood - and I still don’t - is why the Chicago pre-med experience is so punishing. MOST of the Chicago pre-meds are academically talented enough and dedicated enough to be doctors, and heck, most could probably get into the guaranteed BA/MD programs offered at a range of state schools. I don’t understand, then, why Chicago looked to weed out probably 60-65% of the potential pre-meds in a class. </p>
<p>Since I didn’t go the pre-med track at Chicago, I didn’t want to make the more specific comments made in this thread by Spark or idad, but yeah, pre-med at Chicago is needlessly punishing at times. </p>
<p>Again, the counter to this is my friends are really thankful for their Chicago education, and they definitely felt that Chicago was great preparation for medical school - they had worked so hard already. As I said above, though, make no mistake, the Chicago pre-med experience will exact a price.</p>
<p>Oh one other note, if you really love Chicago and you want to go the pre-med route, consider going to a reputable post-bacc program after Chicago, and avoiding the science classes at Chicago entirely. There aren’t a lot of reputable programs out there, but the ones that are good will provide a MUCH more supportive environment from which to succeed. At Chicago, focus on pursuing your passions and doing well while eschewing the pre-med reqs, stay committed to medicine through volunteer activities, and then apply for a post-bacc program that already has great linkages. Yes, it’s another year and it’s expensive, but I think it’s worth it in comparison to the grinder that is pre-med at Chicago.</p>
<p>You can check out a couple of the best programs here:</p>
<p>[Bryn</a> Mawr College: Postbaccaulareate Premedical Program](<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/postbac/]Bryn”>Postbaccalaureate Premedical Program)</p>
<p>and, here:</p>
<p>[Goucher</a> College: Post-Baccalaureate Premedical Program](<a href=“http://www.goucher.edu/x15377.xml]Goucher”>Post-Baccalaureate Premed Program | Goucher College)</p>
<p>Again, this is just another alternative Chicago students should be aware of at an early stage. As is generally the case, Chicago students are generally not as savvy about their pre-professional options, but it seems as if students in the ivies are quite aware of the benefits a post bac program can offer:</p>
<p>[Bryn</a> Mawr Postbaccalaureate Premedical Program - About The Program - Facts and Figures](<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/postbac/program_facts_undergraduate.shtml]Bryn”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/postbac/program_facts_undergraduate.shtml)</p>
<p>Chicago students should at least learn some information about this path.</p>
<p>If you wanted to major in biological sciences, would you still run into a lot of the pre-med reqs? (The course catalog wasn’t super clear about what chemistry is required, etc.)</p>
<p>Cue7, thanks for the info above on postbac, I had never even heard of that!!</p>
<p>Zakuro - I believe that yes, if you major in Bio, you still need to take a lot of the critical subjects in the various science and math disciplines. If you want to major in science, there’s no way around it at Chicago, of course. Also, Chicago is a great place to study science - the classes are generally smaller after the intro sections, the faculty is great, etc. It’s just not a great place to gain a sky high GPA in the sciences.</p>
<p>My advice for the post-bac referred more to kids who want to go to top medical schools and do all the pre-med requirements, but are fine majoring in a social science or in the humanities. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that what makes Chicago so tough is that ALL the classes are pretty demanding. Yes, grade inflation might have hit Chicago, but with the cramped quarter (trimester) system and professors with very high standards, you’ll be pushed across all disciplines.</p>
<p>Hm. The problem is that I don’t know what I want to do. I really like everything about Chicago but am undecided between going on to medical school or doing some other graduate work (I want to double major in bio (neuroscience) and linguistics, and yes I know this is very, very idealistic on my part - I spent a lot of time with the course catalog last week :P) I’m definitely not intent on going to a sky-high medical school but I would like to keep my options open I guess… Argh this is so confusing. >.<</p>
<p>Zakuropanda - if you’re just exploring, and don’t HAVE to go to a top top medical school, Chicago is a really good choice. One big reason for this is, while the med school options might not be great, your PhD options WILL be great - you’ll get to work closely with highly established professors, do meaningful research, etc.</p>
<p>A lot of my friends who majored in the sciences and then went on to PhD programs found the admissions process to be almost embarassingly easy. For PhD programs, they don’t really care about your GPA as much, and care more about your research background and abilities and interest in the subject. So, to a person, all my friends who majored in the sciences into ridiculously great PhD programs (MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Princeton, etc.). </p>
<p>So, if you want to have great PhD options, and still keep the door to medical school open (albeit maybe not maximize your shot at Hopkins Med), Chicago is a very good choice.</p>
<p>Cue7 knows what he’s talking about.
I’ve definitely noticed a stark contrast between Pritzker students and undergrads - it’s hilarious.
With that said, Chicago certainly is not the best place for a pre-med hell-bent on getting into Hahvahd Med. It would simply be too stressful and damn near suicide.
I came to the UofC pretty set on medical school, and now…I’m finding research to be more appealing - which is a great reason to choose the UofC - no matter what you decide to do, you’ll be more than prepared.
I also really, truly, LOATHE and DESPISE CCIHP. Especially Violet Gannon. They just don’t seem to be able to tell me anything I don’t already know, and they’re always putting people down and telling them that they won’t get into medical school. It’s a shame. They’re also overly pretentious for no reason.<br>
The whole pre-med experience here has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
It’s not really all that horrible, but it ain’t all that great either.
Meh.</p>