That’s not universally true. My friend the MIT graduate got in with a perfect verbal score and would be the first to admit that he hates reading. The fact that he’s been able to make a more than comfortable living without “symmetrical” skills in reading and writing says a lot more about the requirements of modern day capitalism than the intrinsic value of being able to read deeply and write skillfully.
This sort of illustrates the point I was making. Your friend at MIT hates reading but still got a perfect verbal score. Had s/he been more interested in reading, s/he would likely be able to do so proficiently. I would never equate having the capacity to read critically with the interest in reading. Undoubtedly, many STEM students in schools like MIT/Caltech are much more passionate and devoted to STEM.
3 Likes
Refresh my memory. Was the point you were trying to make about 1) MIT 2) reading or 3) the SATs?
My point is that if the SATs were really about proficiency in anything but test-taking, my friend would have gotten about a 400 on the verbal.
No. The point I was making is that elite STEM students often possess the capacity to read critically (and do well in the humanities) without much effort. Whether they’re interested or how much they’re interested in it is an entirely different question.
2 Likes
But my friend, the MIT graduate certainly isn’t proof of the case. He as much as admitted that he would have been miserable at a place like Wesleyan where his writing proficiency would have been tested constantly -and not just by answering mulitple choice questions.
In any event, why are you knocking Chicago? I thought they were your boy.
We seem to have wandered far afield from this thread’s OP (UChicago yield).
3 Likes
Your MIT friend would have to take two designated writing-intensive (or communication-intensive, in MIT terminology) courses to graduate (at Caltech, students similarly have to take 3 designated writing-intensive courses). Her/his disinterest in reading/writing doesn’t mean s/he lack the capacity to read/write.
I’ve never had issues with UChicago’s academics or its core curriculum. My issue with UChicago has always been with its admission practices (since Nondoff).
2 Likes
Some of the world’s finest scientists, from Galileo and Darwin to Feynman and Dawkins, have also been exceptionaly fine writers. In a great old U of C class I once took from Norman Maclean himself one of the writers we studied especially for his excellent prose style was Darwin. However, it is also the case that many who lionize science are very poor writers and, worse than that, believe that the ability to write cogent and convincing prose, with a touch of grace, is no big deal and too easy to be bothered with. That could be because it’s actually very hard to do, and they can’t do it.
1 Like
It’s actually four CI classes - two in humanities and two in major:
And DS’s experience has been that some of the philosophy classes he took in fulfillment of the HASS concentration requirement (and beyond) that weren’t formally designated as CI required more writing than some of his CI’s.
Ditto.
1 Like
And that’s your definition of “symmetrical”?
1 Like
Do most elite students in the humanities have the capacity to take a few math-intensive courses?
But is that also not the case for many humanities majors?
There aren’t that many exceptionaly fine writers.
(and yes, that was a grammar dig;)
1 Like
Does it ever occur to the STEM absolutists that not every bright young person finds STEM as interesting as they do and actually wants to continue to do it? I was once pretty good at math myself, but it and to a lesser extent science in general simply faded as subjects that could compel me to do the hard intellectual work I was longing to do. Not all hard things are equally appealing, and the reason one might cease trying to do one type of them is to be able to devote oneself to another and more rewarding type. It’s a big world out there and smart people have many different interests in it.
2 Likes
If Chicago’s core options for math and science are an indication, it looks like they accommodate those who want or need easier versions than those for majors.
2 Likes
What gives you an idea that it doesn’t?
At Wesleyan, you can’t graduate with Honors (in any major) without taking two courses in the Natural Sciences and Math (NSM).
translation: you can graduate
You and your pals on this board certainly give every indication of this, Vulcan. But I am content to retract, at least for you, if you want to say I’ve got you all wrong and that STEM isn’t the winner of the smartness sweepstakes. Do you say that? Don’t be coy.
I think we’ve exhausted the topic
5 Likes