@roethlisburger, I didn’t say UK should offer free tuition. I was responding to a poster who said people believe, in theory, with offering more aid to low income students but they wouldn’t send their kids to a school that did. I said that I support the NYS proposal and I’m not afraid to send my kids to our schools. I suspect there are families in Kentucky who feel the same way – they support the moves UK is making and will still encourage their kids to apply there.
Are the elite students lumped in with the general population?
That sounds so awful, lol, I’m assuming it was just your choice of wording and not your sentiment.
I’m hoping my own entitled snowflake who went to a private high school on scholarship in an affluent area —& thought she was too good for UK—learns to appreciate and value not only economic diversity, social & cultural & regional diversity, but academic diversity too.
One can dream!
“If you can’t afford it, now you’re in the same boat as all the other families whose kids have good, but not tippy top stats, who have to be creative in funding their education. Welcome to a very large club.”
Even if you can afford it, and you have kids with tippy top stats, in many cases it is still intelligent to chase merit aid. One can wind up wealthier. It can also be an intelligent decision for a school to offer it to those students. The school and the state it serves may wind up better off.
@LOUKYDAD writes: “Even if you can afford it, and you have kids with tippy top stats, in many cases it is still intelligent to chase merit aid. One can wind up wealthier. It can also be an intelligent decision for a school to offer it to those students. The school and the state it serves may wind up better off.”
You’re still not getting it. The state is not necessarily better off giving merit aid to students who will choose State Public University regardless of the cost and who will still graduate with a bachelor’s degree. However, the state may be better off giving need-based aid to students who will now be able to complete a bachelor’s degree at State Public University because they can afford it. These students still have high scores, and now they have a chance for a college degree.
Two questions:
(1) How many high-stat Kentucky residents who can afford UK choose to leave for out-of-state schools?
(2) How many low- and moderate-income Kentucky residents who cannot afford UK for four years are dropping out?
If the number of kids dropping out due to lack of funds is significantly higher than the number of kids leaving the state to go to school (especially if many return upon graduation), then it is in the state’s best interest to funnel some of the money to keeping low- and moderate-income kids in school.
You’re mixing up having low income students with only having need based aid. Some of the need based aid schools admit almost no low income students, https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html.
What’s true for an individual isn’t necessarily true for the group. There’s a lot of credential creep where everyone has to run faster to stay in place.
Another assumption not in evidence. It seems reasonable to bet most of the drop-outs have low-stats.
^that’s what the KY study showed them and why they changed their aid structure: those dropping out are NOT doing so because they had low stats, but because they’re middle and lower income and can’t afford to stay.
In short UKY is losing good students due to financial aid inadequacy that can be remediated by offering less complete merit aid and more complete financial aid (but STILL offering merit aid: if they offer full tuition scholarships with a research/summer stipend, they’ll still be competitive. Look at how popular the UAlabama Honors College is on these boards, and the scholarship is full-tuition.)
Colleges are not prisons. If I’m understanding your meaning correctly, I think you’re mistaken about which is the “high end” group.
@MYOS1634 What study? Is it linked anywhere that people can read and evaluate. Even a lot of published, peer reviewed studies have enough methodological flaws they’re almost useless. High stat, low stat, high income, and low income are also such vague terms as to be almost useless. You can find people on CC who think $300k/year is middle class. You could take a trip to Harlan and people would think you’re rich if you make $100k/year.
The KY study referenced/linked at one point on this thread, which started the shift from 90% merit/10% need to 35% merit/65% need.
The OP’s link is what I would call a news article, not a study. Still, you’re extrapolating way beyond the original link. The original link found that for a fixed freshmen GPA, a higher unmet need reduced the likelihood of retention. It didn’t tell you what proportion of dropouts had above a 3.0 freshmen GPA. It definitely didn’t say anything about what proportion of need-based aid would be going to low stats kids. Everything else equal, more financial aid increases retention. I don’t think the OP’s link proves anything more than that.
^I was thinking of the Bill/Melinda Gates Foundation study and how it applies to what is apparent in KY/with UKY. Sorry, I dont have it at my fingertips.
I know a study proved it and several universities have been trying to act on it, especially with the push for increasing rates of 4-/5-/6- year graduation. Some universities have implemented micro loans when they discovered something as low as $500 missing could derail a student.
One thing that stuck out for me was that half students with EFC 0 dropped out due to insufficient financial aid (leading to working too many hours which made it impossible to balance work and college.)
Yes it doesn’t tell you that dropouts have a 3.0 freshman GPA or that need-based aid would go to low-stats kids*. It does tell you the main reason is insufficient financial aid leading to too many work hours and that better need-based aid increases retention which is necessary for students to graduate.
*Because UKY is the flagship, by definition low stats kids, per KY standards, aren’t admitted there.
^
While UK aspires to be the flagship, its admission is not noticeably more selective than U of L. I’ll end with that, before I get a debate society warning.
^true, but… Kentucky’s low-stats kids aren’t attending either one.
(And yes I realize average stats in KY are lower than in other states but relative to their pool).
Anyone more familiar with Kentucky public universities able to say how much more difficult it is to get admitted to UK or UL versus EKU, KSU, Morehead State, Murray State, NKU, and WKU?
“If a school requires stats and expensive ECs to get in”
If there are any schools that require expensive ECs to get in, I don’t know about them.
What schools do require is that low SES kids get competent counseling so that those kids know to talk about their hours caring for family, working minimum wage jobs, etc.
@ucbalumnus Here you go!
UK and UofL are about the same selectivity (based on test scores). The others are s step behind. For example, the average ACT scores at UK and UofL is 25, while at several of the other schools it’s 22.
Based on admit rates, several of the other schools have lower admit rates than UK and UofL.
EDIT: by the way, schools like EKU offer several nice merit based scholarships to in-state schools. It’s what makes these schools more appealing to some in-state students in the 25 to 30 ACT score range. For example, a student with a 3.5 HS GPA and a 28 on the ACT would be awarded a $6K a year scholarship (Regents) at EKU.
^Also, WKU has a critical language flagship and a good honors college.
UKY has revamped its honors college thanks to a gift though.
“Anyone more familiar with Kentucky public universities able to say how much more difficult it is to get admitted to UK or UL versus EKU, KSU, Morehead State, Murray State, NKU, and WKU?”
At some point in my life I have been on the campus of all of the above except KSU (which is or was a HBCU).
Although UK is the flagship, you could definitely put UL in the same tier. Top 200 national research universities, Tier 1 research, admission stats similar (avg ACT 25), athletics programs, located in the two largest cities in the state. UL was historically much more of a commuter school but that has been changing.
The other five you group together, once again very similar stats (avg ACT 22). In much smaller towns. Geographically dispersed so as to serve their region of the state. All have significantly lower COAs than UK. The top 25% of their student bodies are going to be the 25 to 30 ACT kids, and as Gator88NE pointed out they are all offering significant merit aid to that group (of the automatic guaranteed variety, half to full tuition), making these schools very affordable options for this group. This group isn’t getting much of any help at UK presently. Their is a very significant cost difference right now for the 25 to 30 ACT kids. For this group the better financial deal is clearly at the directional schools as of today. If you want UK you have to pay up for it. If you don’t want to pay up or can’t afford to you go to one of the directionals.
http://www.wku.edu/scholarship/beginningfreshmanscholarships.php
http://www.murraystate.edu/admissions/scholarships/newfreshmen.aspx
At these five directionals, the top 50% of their students are 22 to 30 ACT. A wide range of SES with this group. With these policy changes at UK, what you are doing is pulling the low SES kids from this group to UK, and sending the higher stats (31-36 ACT kids) out of state. You shrink the directionals or else take on more students who need remedial ed.
Good policy for the state or not?
Should mention that UL has a unique affordability option. If you work part-time for UPS they will pay your tuition plus at UL.
@MYOS1634 Brings up a great point concerning micro loans. So many times we see students come on CC and say that money is tight and they will not be able to stay in school because they cannot meet the next semester costs. As with all lines in the sand there are going to be kids who fall short of paying the bill by $1K or $2K or less. My experience in college way back when was you NEEDED to have your bill paid by X date in order to begin studies. it was either fully paid or not. Simple. The damage comes when I student falls just sort of the line. Is it possible this kid only need a small boost to keep him on track? Is this a worthy endeavor for the school to assist with? Something for the philosophers to ponder.
We should consider that we really don’t know the “plan” yet. I’m assuming some of the need-based aid will be grants, given based on need, while other need-based aid will be done via more competitive scholarships, which will consider need and merit.
The median household income in KY is $41,141 (which is about the same in Tennessee, Alabama, Louisiana, etc.). A grant of a few thousand dollars, may be enough to recruit middle class kids in the 25 to 30 ACT range. 