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<br>
<p>Or maybe both. If lots of OOS students want to apply, Michigan can increase their revenue by raising prices regardless of how much the state gives them.</p>
<p>Schmaltz. You seem to be the typical Michigan self-hater I run into all the time. All public schools charge more money to OOS students. Michigan charges more because they can get it!</p>
<p>I’m anything but a Michigan hater…I was born in Michigan and I’m sure I’ll die in Michigan. And by far my favorite Big 10 school is the U of Michigan. Tons of my relatives have gone there, and one even got an honorary degree there. I have a drawer full of U of M sweatshirts and T-shirts. My father graduated from U of M when he was 78 years old, and it was the happiest day of his life. </p>
<p>What I’m saying is:</p>
<p>(1) U of Toronto is every bit as good (and as pretty) as U of Michigan.
(2) It doesn’t seem outlandish to speculate that at some point one part of the state government (U of M) might feel the pain of the state’s financial situation.
(3) Don’t blame me if you didn’t learn the difference between cause and effect at U of M.</p>
<p>I’m sorry but you make it sound as if The University of Michigan is totally doomed and are discouraging others from attending it. Tell me I’m wrong.</p>
<p>Shmaltz, you should check out the thread we have on Michigan privatizing. Financially, Michigan may hurt a little if the state economy collapses entirely, but it has taken the necessary steps to thrive, even if the state no longer can contribute to Michigan’s operating budget.</p>
<p>But in truth, it is hard to imagine how the state Economy can get much worse than it has over the last three decades. I am sure things can get slightly worse, but they will, at some point, get better. Either way, like I said above, the University of Michigan is the only public university in the state of Michigan that does not and will not rely on the state to survive.</p>
<p>I should tell you the population between these two cities. Ann Arbor, Michigan, U.S population is [114,024] people and Toronto, Ontario, Canada population is [2,503,281] people. Toronto is the biggest city in Canada, it’s very multicultural and diverse. Chinatown is a 3 min walk from UofT and Canada’s third largest mall “The Eaton Centre”[it’s 1,722,000 square feet] is 20 min away from UofT by walking and there’s a Subway Station entrance 3 min way from UofT. Plus you have lots of Streetcars that run pass a stop every 2-3mins by the entrance of UofT!! good transportion!! There’s a lot of things Toronto has to offer, I lived there for 7 years and I haven’t seen all of Toronto!! Plus the CN Tower that is currently the 2nd highest free standing structure in the world (it was the highest free standing structure from 1975-2007 until the Burj Dubai) is in this city!! and the beach is about 15 mins away from UofT <strong>Lake Ontario</strong> MTV Canada is also in the city!! it also has a major commuter train station!! tons of restarants and clubs so that you can have a social life!! But it all depends on what you want, do you like a big city life?!? Sometimes it can be overwhelming for people since the population is very large!!</p>
<p>No question that Toronto is a wonderful city. I go there at least 6 times a year and love it. However, personally I prefer a college town and all it has to offer over a big city environment for school. To each his own.</p>
<p>
Am I missing something here? Is U of Toronto not a public university? Is Canada/Ontario not affected by the financial crisis? Why would U-M be affected more than UT? With an endowment of merely C$1.76B (compared to U-M’s $7.57B), UT does not have the deep pocket of Michigan.</p>
<p>Here’s an article from McCleans’ On Campus (<a href=“http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/01/27/full-courses-mean-fifth-years-for-unlucky-undergrads/[/url]):”>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/01/27/full-courses-mean-fifth-years-for-unlucky-undergrads/):</a></p>
<p>"Victory laps for unlucky undergrads
Full mandatory courses can mean an extra year of school for strapped students</p>
<p>"Kevin* is in an intense four-year science program at the University of British Columbia, but he’s only taking four courses this semester. That’s because he couldn’t get into his second-year field class – a mandatory course he needs in order to graduate. The lighter workload isn’t a problem, but it’s the extra tuition payment that irks him. He will have to do a victory lap – a fifth year at UBC – because his required course was full.
…</p>
<p>“While the federal government announced today that it will invest $2 billion dollars in infrastructure for post-secondary campuses, operating budgets are a completely different story. The **University of Toronto]/b], Wilfred Laurier University and The University of Western Ontario have all announced major cuts to their budgets in the past two weeks. Wilfred Laurier’s president announced that his school’s 16 percent budget cut will likely mean fewer professors…”</p>
<p>OTOH, Michigan seems to be riding through this in pretty good shape … so far. </p>
<p>“With an “AAA” rating from Standard & Poor’s and an “Aaa” rating from Moody’s Investors Service, U-M is one of just three public universities in the nation to retain the top ratings as the nation’s stalled economy begins to stabilize. The others are the University of Virginia and the University of Texas.” (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/714929-u-m-retains-top-bond-rating.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/714929-u-m-retains-top-bond-rating.html</a>)</p>
<p>Mary Sue just gave an update on U-M finances ([U-M</a> financial update | Michigan Today](<a href=“http://michigantoday.umich.edu/2009/05/finances.php?tr=y&auid=4859413]U-M”>http://michigantoday.umich.edu/2009/05/finances.php?tr=y&auid=4859413)) … and there is no reason to panic.</p>
<p>
As an international student, your chance of getting a job in the US right after you graduate from UT is not good, as you are not eligible for practical training. You have to apply for an H-1B visa to work, which is in high demand and requires a lottery.</p>
<p>You have a better chance finding employment in Canada.</p>
<p>As for graduate school, it shouldn’t matter as both are highly regarded in academia.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for all replies! They really give a much clearer picture of both schools 
</p>
<p>I think I’ll like UMich more because of the nicer campus life. But I’m glad to find out that both schools are good in terms of academics. </p>
<p>BTW is it really true that undergrad classes are taught by TAs most of the time (especially in UT as I heard)? I heard that some of them have poor English. Does it have a very bad influence on your education?</p>
<p>I can’t speak for Toronto, but at Michigan, not a single one of the Economics classes I took was taught by a TA. They were all taught by full time professors, all of which spoke English perfectly. Although I did not take intro-level courses, I memory serves, even intro-level courses were taught by professors. </p>
<p>However, many of my classes had weekly discussion sessions and those were often led by PhD candidates (TAs). Most of those TAs spoke English perfectly but one or two of them undeniably had trouble communicating in English and that caused some problems. </p>
<p>However, I was a student back in the mid 90s. I think Michigan now screens TAs for English so the likelyhood of having a TA that cannot speak English well is next to nil. </p>
<p>Please note that although many people in this forum have a negative attitude toward TAs, most of them are quite brilliant. Getting into a top 10 Economics program like Michigan requires a great deal of ability and TAs tend to be third or fourth year PhD candidates, so they really know their stuff. If you think about it, virtually all top professors at most top universities (even Nobel Prize winners) were once PhD candidates at a top Economics program like Michigan…and when they were working toward their PhD, they most likely served as TAs for undergraduate students. There is no shame in having a TA as long as the TA sticks to assisting!</p>
<p>RJK, yeah, for the undergrad experience, I’m not a big fan of huge cities, either. But the OP doesn’t seem to mind, and we might need to keep in mind that it’s his interests that count here, not our preferences.</p>
<p>The OP seemed to be getting a flood of comments that indicated Michigan was a clear-cut winner in this horse race. I don’t think that’s the case, even if they are the same price…much less when Toronto is lots cheaper.</p>
<p>Rjk, I’m not trying to dissuade anybody from going to U of M because of the state’s economic situation…but apparently you’re a local like I am, and each day both of us wake up to a new level of economic heartache (Alexandre, the first and only silly thing I’ve read from you on CollegeConfidential was that overly optimistic line about how the state has sucked for decades, and how can it get any worse?..I’ll tell that one to the guys down at the unemployment office, they’ll get a good chuckle out of it). If you think the U of M is completely insulated from the overall sinking of the Titanic, I’ll take your word for it. I hope you’re right, especially since today Notre Dame went all Georgetown over Obama and I had to scratch it from my list of potential colleges for my kids. See you over at 12 Oaks.</p>
<p>Schmaltz, I did not say the University of Michigan was completely insulated from the overall sinking titanic. I said that the University of Michigan has taken the necessary steps to make itself self-reliant financially. Like I said, 80% of Michigan’s operating budget is generated by independent means…and that is not including funds generated by its own endowment. State funding only covers 13% of the University’s operating budget. </p>
<p>Also keep in mind that those figures above do not include the cost of operating the University of Michigan hospitals or the $900 million the University spends on research annually. The hospital generates its own budget through income creation and research spending is entirely funded by federal and private contributions.</p>
<p>In termsof professional placement, the most active recruiters on Michigan’s campus in recent years have been out of state companies. If you look at Ross’ placement figures, not a single Michigan-based company was listed among the 10 most active recruiters and only 2 Michigan firms (Ford and GM) were among the 40 most active recruiters. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2008.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2008.pdf</a></p>
<p>And that’s not a result of the recent economic downturn. If you go back 2002, Ford and GM still only played a minor role in the overall on-campus recruitment activity. </p>
<p><a href=“Error 404! Page Not Found. - iMpact Web Portal”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2002.pdf</a></p>
<p>Even at the college of Engineering, which is obviously relies a lot more on traditional industry and manufacturing, the majority of active recruiters on campus come from out of state. </p>
<p><a href=“http://career.engin.umich.edu/annualReport/Annual_Report0708.pdf[/url]”>http://career.engin.umich.edu/annualReport/Annual_Report0708.pdf</a></p>
<p>If you turn to the bottom of page 10 of the report above, you can clearly see that only one of the 10 most active recruiters (GM) at the college of Engineering was an in-state company. If you look through pages 11-14, you will see all the companies that recruit on campus. The vast majority of them come from out of state.</p>
<p>In short, the University of Michigan does not depend or rely too heavily on the state for funding and the students at the University of Michigan do not count too much on local firms for jobs when they graduate.</p>
<p>you know michigan engineering is good when california department of transportation comes to recruit.</p>
<p>The list of companies that actively recruit on campus annually at the CoE is impressive. The list includes the following institutions and corporations (companies with an * next to them generally hire more than 10 students on an annual basis):</p>
<p>AEROSPACE ENGINEERING:
BAE Systems
Boeing *
General Dynamics *
Honeywell International
Jet Propulsion Lab
Lockheed Martin *
NASA *
Northrop Grumman *
Raytheon *
Rolls Royce
United Technologies Corporation *</p>
<p>CONSULTING FIRMS:
Accenture *
Bain & Company
Booz Allen Hamilton
Boston Consulting Group
McKinsey & Company
Mercer Consulting
Oliver Wyman Consulting</p>
<p>FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS:
Bank of America
Citigroup
Deutsche Bank
Goldman Sachs
HSBC
JP Morgan Chase
Morgan Stanley
UBS</p>
<p>INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY:
Cisco Systems *
Google Inc. *
Intel *
Microsoft*
Sun Microsystems</p>
<p>MANUFACTURING:
Ford Motor Company
General Electric
General Mills
General Motors *
Honda
Kellogg Company
Mercedes Benz
Mitsubishi
Motorola
Nokia
Procter and Gamble
Samsung
Siemens
Toyota</p>
<p>PETROCHEMICAL:
Abu Dhabi National Oil Company
Air Liquide
Air Products and Chemicals Inc.
BASF Corporation
British Petroleum
Chevron
Dow Chemical
DuPont
ExxonMobil Corporation
PPG Industries
Praxair Inc.
SABIC
Schumberger
Shell Oil Company</p>
<p>PHARMACEUTICALS and BIOTECH:
Abbott Laboratories
Amgen
Bristol Myers Squibb
Eli Lilly & Company
Johnson and Johnson
Medtronic
Merck</p>
<p>UNIVERSITIES:
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University
Cornell University
Duke University
Georgia Institute of Technology
Harvard University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Mayo Clinic
Mercer Consulting Group
Princeton University
Purdue University
Stanford University
University of California-Los Angeles
University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign
University of Maryland-College Park
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of Notre Dame
University of Pennsylvania
University of Rochester
University of Texas-Austin
University of Virginia
Yale University</p>
<p>Those are just the major companies and institutions. There are literally close to 500 companies that recruit exclusively at the CoE.</p>
<p>The takeaway from this thread is that you can stop fretting about you inability to visit, or about making the wrong choice. Both schools are strong academically in econ, and while there are pros and cons to each place, neither is the “wrong” one. Whatever you decide, I think you’ll be fine and you can be confident you did the right thing.</p>
<p>Wow, if hoe had said that a few days ago, it would have saved us all a bunch of time. Well done, my man. “Brevity is the soul of wit.” I’m not sure who said that, but I know it wasn’t Joe Biden.</p>
<p>yep that’s true thanks everyone for your help!</p>