U Tex. Reconsiders Campus's Confederate Statues

<p>"AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- The new president of the University of Texas says he will appoint a panel to decide what to do with four bronze statues on the Austin campus that honor confederate leaders and have drawn complaints for several years.</p>

<p>William Powers Jr., who took over as president this month, said the advisory committee would look into concerns about the statues, which include likenesses of Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederate States, and Gen. Robert E. Lee.</p>

<p>"A lot of students, and especially minority students, have raised concerns. And those are understandable and legitimate concerns. On the other hand, the statues have been here for a long time, and that's something we have to take into account as well," Powers said in Wednesday's Austin American-Statesman.</p>

<p>The university's previous president, Larry Faulkner, wrote an open letter to the campus more than two years ago saying the statues convey "institutional nostalgia" for the Confederacy and its values.</p>

<p>"Most who receive that message are repelled," Faulkner wrote...."</p>

<p>As a Native Texan with ancestors who fought at the Battle of San Jac and who just happens to be Anglo, let me say this...one of the reasons I find the statues offensive is because they speak to the immediate decline of our state from a proud, independent Republic to a namby-pamby go-along state that immediately hooked up with a bunch of losers. ;) Who needs to be reminded of THAT?</p>

<p>Seriously, if something is offensive, divisive or even just hurts feelings, WHY would you want to hang on to it? It isn't worth it.</p>

<p>I am in the middle of watching Ken Burns' series, "The Civil War." Over 600,000 men, young and old died in the course of the Civil War. I'd advise anyone to watch the series - it's very well done and informative. </p>

<p>Like it or not the Confederacy did exist and is a part of our history and our heritage. The raising of concerns about the statues shows that we still have not come to terms with our own Civil War nor its effect on our nation.</p>

<p>We cannot continue to pretend that the Civil War did not happen and removing any trace of the Confederacy will do just that.</p>

<p>I won't comment on Jefferson Davis, but Robert E. Lee most definately warrants statues regardless of rebel status. He only joined the Confederacy due to his home state's status (Virginia), and even then he was a great general who saved many lives by eventually surrendering to Grant rather than fighting on.</p>

<p>I am not from the South and I definately don't endorse slavery, but I believe Robert E. Lee deserves to be recognized as the great man he was.</p>

<p>I suspect these "complaints" are simply a matter of ignorant people believing that statues of Confederate leaders are somehow linked to slavery - there was much more to the war and the people involved.</p>

<p>Folks don't feel good looking at anything that celebrates a group that stood for oppression of their ancestors.
Ya you guys are Namby-pamby. People often say that about Texas.
I could join the DAR, Daughters of Confederacy etc etc. That is well and good if you like that stuff. But pride in history-as opposed to knowlege of history- should stop when it is known to hurt other folks. It's not like you or I were in the Civil War.
One of the big issues in Northern Ireland is the Scots/Irish Northern Protestants marching through Catholic neighborhoods celebrating a battle one in 1690. The marchers know the symbols they carry hurt and even more the power they have to carry them hurts.
I think the way for America to move away from this stuff is to teach the whole history of the country, especially attitudes and FACTS about the civil war, but at the same time move away from the grandstanding about symbols.
Should have gone with the Turkey!</p>

<p>BusinessGuy:</p>

<p>Well, as to Lee, why not recognize Erwin Rommel?</p>

<p>"but Robert E. Lee most definately warrants statues regardless of rebel status. He only joined the Confederacy due to his home state's status (Virginia)"</p>

<p>Maybe some day they'll take the traitor out of the Capitol Rotunda. (Traitors to their country always have their reasons....)</p>

<p>(Rommel wasn't a traitor, and hadn't taken an oath to defend his country, which he broke....)</p>

<p>Ach Old...I know those Orangemen are being provocative, but oppression is definitely a two way street in Ulster and has been since the Presbyterians were stripped naked and thrown in the streets to starve hundreds of years ago. </p>

<p>But I agree, the history can be taught without inappropriate celebration. And whether or not a historical figure is all bad or all good (very few are either imho), you have to look at cause and effect of displaying these statues. Do the statues CAUSE positive emotions or thoughts? We know they cause many minorities to feel badly, but do they cause Anglos to look on the history of the Civil War with proper context, or do they cause inappropriate pride in a glossed over idea? </p>

<p>I think what has been proposed at UT by some is moving the statues to a historical museum display on campus, where other information could also be displayed that would put the events and the figures in proper and accurate context. To me, this seems wise.</p>

<p>BusinessGuy, such memorial statues, and the Civil War, are very much linked to slavery. Your old canard about the war being unconnected to slavery doesn't wash. Also, I''ll grant (no pun intended) that Lee is a distinguished figure for various reasons (not all I feel good about), but men like Nathan Beford Forest and Quadrill were just felonious rogues who took personal opportunity in the war.</p>

<p>They could take the approach of adding four Union leaders, add an annual costumed imaginary debate between the Confederates and the Yankees, and it could become a useful history lesson instead of an embarassment, not to mention an enhancement to the theater program.</p>

<p>Doesn't matter if slavery was the issue. In fact, if it wasn't an issue, Lee was even more of a traitor. He was personally opposed to slavery. But he took an oath to defend his country, and broke it, and tens of thousands of people died as a result.</p>

<p>Lee being a "traitor" is a matter of interpretation. If the Confederacy had won their independence and Lee had remained with the Union, I'm sure the Confederates would consider him a "traitor".</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that many people held more loyalty to their state than to the nation during the time period.</p>

<p>Erwin Rommel was not an American, but I still respect him and wouldn't mind a statue of him. If the Germans desired to build statues of him I wouldn't go around saying, "NOO this is wrong, he was a Nazi and a traitor!"</p>

<p>The Civil War was more a matter of the South asserting its independence from the North as the two were very different both economically and socially. Slavery was part of the issue, but if the South had a steady flow of immigrants who were willing to work in horrible conditions, for long hours, and for little pay, I'm sure they wouldn't have cared about freeing the slaves so much. Consider this, I think slaughtering cattle is immoral and wrong so I decide that nobody in the US can slaughter cattle; I live in a state without any cattle to begin with, while another state relies upon cattle to sustain their economy, is that fair?</p>

<p>Having a good understanding of history is very important if you choose to argue over such matters.</p>

<p>mini: As I said above, Lee was loyal to his state (Virginia) first and foremost. During the 19th century most Americans identified with a specific group which generally coincided with a geographic region. The Midwestern farmers had their issues, the corporate/industrial Morth had its issues, and the South most definately had its issues. Lee was loyal to his people (Southerners) and for that you brand him a traitor? </p>

<p>We might as well say that George Washington and the rest of the founding fathers were traitors since they stood against their nation - traitors and patriots are only separated by which side wins the war. </p>

<p>During the Revolutionary War, the colonists saw themselves as Americans first, and English second (just like the South), they felt they had no power in the government (Lincoln and North-dominated congress), and were being treated wrongly (Abolitionist sentiment etc. which the South could not stop).</p>

<p>The Civil War is not a very clear issue, there were good and evil men on both sides, and both sides had their reasons for fighting. You cannot brand the Confederates as traitors so easily, and you cannot brand the South as immoral racists for desiring to govern themselves (the northern manufacturing workers might as well have been called slaves, the living conditions weren't much different).</p>

<p>It's most unfortunate that people are offended and action must be taken simply because they didn't pay attention in American History.</p>

<p>"Lee being a "traitor" is a matter of interpretation."</p>

<p>I read your long message, and I still don't see how it is a matter of interpretation, and regardless of whether I happen to like Lee, whether he was loyal to his state, or what I feel the cause of the Civil War was.</p>

<p>He took an oath to defend the Constitution, enlisted of his own free will, rose through the ranks, and took up arms against the U.S. I don't think he was a racist, or a bad man, or pro-slavery, or particularly violent or evil, and am sure he had his reasons. Traitors always do.</p>

<p>George Washington served as an English Officer, then later led the Colonial Traitors... umm... Revolutionaries. If America had not won the Revolutionary War, and was currently part of the British Commonwealth, I'm sure George Washington wouldn't be seen in the same way, possibly similar to how people think of Lee?</p>

<p>Lee is only a traitor because his revolution failed and he was on the losing side.</p>

<p>I'm in favor of a sign near the statue stating, "If this offends you, pick up a history book and learn instead of thinking 'Civil War=slavery!!!!'."</p>

<p>I grew up in Virginia. It was almost impossible to spit in any direction without hitting a Civil War battlefield. There was a Confederate graveyard in my back yard (literally) at one of our rental houses. I grew up on segregation, a Virginia history book that glorified Confederate heroes, and a courthouse with a Confederate soldier statue standing guard. That must have made the African-Americans on trial there feel very cozy.</p>

<p>Like BusinessGuy, I long resisted the idea that the War Between the States, the War of Northern Aggression, or the Recent Unpleasantness was caused by slavery. That's natural. In Japan, these days, many children are taught that Japan's role in WWII was forced on them by the colonialist powers, including an "advance" (not "attack," mind you) into China. </p>

<p>Growing up, I was a Civil War history fanatic, using my hard-earned money to buy subscriptions to two Civil War history magazines and pretty much devouring every book on the subject at the small, local library. I hated Bruce Catton because he seemed so pro-Union to me. I loved Douglas Southall Freeman because of his reverence for the Confederate armies and the "lost cause." To this day, I can still give you the brigade, brigade commanders, and individual regiments engaged in particular attacks at particular battles. It's pretty useless knowledge, but it's stuck in there, somewhere.</p>

<p>It wasn't until I got to college and started taking some courses on the period, reading original sources from a very extensive library, that I began to realize that I had been either wrong or, at best, had incomplete knowledge on a number of issues. One of them was the role of slavery.</p>

<p>I believe I represent the vast majority of historians when I say that, without slavery, the Civil War doesn't happen. It's that simple. Slavery drove the Missouri compromise, the Kansas Wars, the Underground Railroad, the thundering denunciations in the Northern press and the thundering denunciations in return from the Southern press, friction of the 3/5s rule, and a host of other, related issues, including the way Southerners were treated in the North and Northerners in the South, that led to the break.</p>

<p>BusinessGuy is right about some things. The US, in those days, was much more like the modern EU than like the US we know, today. The US Constitution's Bill of Rights did not extend basic rights to all citizens, for the most part. Instead, it just limited the power of the federal government. It was only in the late 19th century that the Supreme Court decided that Amendment 14 meant that all Americans were to be protected by the Bill of Rights, even from their state governments.</p>

<p>I think it's fair to say that the Civil War actually made the US a real nation instead of a loose cooperative of sovereign states. In that reality, it is very difficult to call RE Lee a "traitor," even if he did swear an oath to the US. </p>

<p>I also believe BusinessGuy would be correct if he said (and I don't think he has) that most Northerners did not actually enlist for war because of slavery, nor would they have enlisted had they thought this was the reason for the war. The letters from Union soldiers are very clear about this. The best estimates I've seen put the number of Northern abolitionists at only about 10% of the population.</p>

<p>Having said all that, I think we should let at least four Confederate States speak for themselves on the issue, and let those reading decide if slavery wasn't the cause of their secession:</p>

<p>TEXAS</p>

<p>
[quote]
We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable. </p>

<p>That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states. </p>

<p>By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>MISSISSIPPI</p>

<p>
[quote]
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>GEORGIA</p>

<p>
[quote]
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>SOUTH CAROLINA</p>

<p>
[quote]
The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.</p>

<p>The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them.</p>

<p>In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The other part of this, at least it seems to me - the majority of northern white folks do not have ancestors that were here during the Civil War. The war and it's effects are a non-issue here. No glorious lost battles, no songs about Our Old New Jersey Home.</p>

<p>OldinJersey:</p>

<p>John Keegan says that the South is the part of the US that reminds him most of Europe. It is the only part that has ever faced the consequences of losing in an era of total war.</p>

<p>Long ago I had a college roommate who came to visit me in Montclair NJ. her husband went on and on about how uncomfortable he was in a bar surrounded by Yankees, who he was sure hated him for being southern and were one step from attacking him at all times.
Baffled me! The neighborhood was not yet yupified, and was Italian, Irish and Black. "northerners" don't think of themselves as northerners, yankees or anything much but Americans. We don't see ourselves as winners in a civil war. It's the South that has a separate identity and culture. Or so Rita Mae Brown leads me to believe.
One of these decades I'll get to see where that branch of my family came from -Jacksonville, GA and find out for myself.</p>

<p>Old:</p>

<p>I never felt that way in the North, but I must say that when I first moved to a Northern city and the local streets were named "Sherman," "Sheridan," and the like, my skin crawled.</p>

<p>I am from Arizona and so have no real bias either way on the issue of North vs. South.</p>

<p>Tarhunt: I agree with most everything you said, the only thing I wanted to make clear was that the idea most associate with slavery - freedom and equality for all - is not the only or driving factor behind the South's support of slavery. As your sources stated, the economic impact of the slaves was huge for the South, similar to the impact of the immigrants on the North. By telling the South to give up slavery, it would be the same as telling the North to refrain from exploiting immigrants.</p>

<p>I think the Civil War can teach people quite a bit about the country and the driving forces behind decisions. To remove statues that represent the past suggests that it isn't important. As one suggested, it could be divisive, but only to those who do not have an understanding of history.</p>

<p>Rather than remove the statues, I would suggest calling attention to the library, or having a "Civil War Appreciation" event. If people are able to look at the issue from all sides (as I have tried to do from the Confederate perspective rather than bashing them from the Union perspective) and keep personal feelings out of it, I'm sure there would be much to gain. As always, the issue lies with the ignorant masses who are unlikely to change.</p>