There seems to be an interesting debate within the state of Alabama regarding whether UA’s expansion efforts, which have included offering massive amounts of merit aid to OOS students is a good thing. As the parent of an OOS who was initially attracted to UA due to the scholarship money, this is a debate of interest to me. I’m too ignorant to really make an informed opinion about this issue; however, I know that there are many on this forum with a greater understanding of UA and these issues. I’ve pasted below an opinion piece from the Crimson and White from a very opinionated UA alum who is currently a prof at Georgia. As you can see from the article, the prof argues that UA’s expansion plans are fiscally unsound and he alleges that UA has not seen any tangible increase in its overall academic rankings to reward it for these efforts. I have no idea if this prof is right on, or whether he is totally off base - especially respecting his allegations regarding UA’s finances. My son and I visited UA’s campus during his spring break and we were impressed with everything that we saw. However, I think that these are issues worth discussion and exploration.
I honestly think that UA could probably get to the selectivity and prestige level of a large public university like the University of Michigan within a few years, if they did it right. Judging by the campus (I’m not attending yet, but plan to this fall), it seems that they’ve got all the infrastructure set up. I think it’s just coming down to making sure that they have a stellar group of professors teaching and being more selective with the incoming class before UA jumps to a mid-tier research universities (I could see it jumping to top-30’s rankings). I think now it’s just a matter of advertising, making sure that their name gets out there. Once applications and selectivity rise than merit scholarships will drop and then the university can generate more money from OOS students. My theory at least 
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very opinionated UA alum
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He is NOT a UA alum. He is a UAB alum.
And when comparing research dollars ( like he did with UAB), he’s being disingenuous since a huge chunk of UAB’s research dollars exist because they’re counting the med school’s research dollars. Of course a school that has a SOM on campus is going to have a huge chunk of research dollars.
I trust Chancellor Witt’s vision for Alabama. He was dean of UTexas Business School for 10 years before becoming president of UT-Arlington, before becoming President of UA, and now Chancellor of the UA system. I trust him to have a much better understanding of these things than some Geography Prof from UGA.
Thanks @mom2collegekids for the correction respecting the author’s alma mater which may be a fact that colors his objectivity here. As an OOS parent, I was ignorant of this fact; however, there apparently is some tension between UA and UAB alums respecting UA’s status as the state’s flagship school. In any event, like I said above I am very suspect about many of the author’s claim, especially those relating to UA’s finances. I would think that the University has a sufficient number of competent people on the Board and in other governing bodies to ensure that it is not doing anything that would threaten the financial solvency of the university.
I do wonder about the academic rankings. My son has a list of about five schools he will be applying to and UA is on that list. The other institutions on the list have academic reputations significantly higher than UA and when I mention to co-workers, families and friends that we are considering UA they give us odd looks. Of course this is no surprise to us as most people just don’t investigate these things and they based their opinion on UA based on their perceptions of the state of Alabama. We included UA in our list because, given his academic credentials, my son would have greater opportunities at UA that he would not have at these other institutions - Honors College, Blount Undergraduate Initiative, presently at UA Scholar level but likely Presidential level before December scholarship deadline.
We also thought that UA is an university on the rise, both in terms of its enrollment and its academic rankings. In short, along the same lines as @ARandomGeek post above. Obviously, it takes longer to improve the rankings than increasing enrollment. The rankings are based in part on peer evaluation but also include metrics such as graduation rate, research dollars, faculty to teacher ratio and so on. I’ve learned a lot from reading your post (@mom2collegekids) you are amongst a handful of posters on this site who appear to have a great wealth of knowledge of about UA developed over a period of years. I get the impression that your child/children who attended UA have graduated. If you have been watching UA’s rankings during this period, have you noticed any change in UA’s academic reputation?
One poster on here was fond of referring to UAB as U Ain’t Bama.
One problem I have with the professor’s analysis is that much of the debt is not being paid by taxpayers, but rather by revenue. UA doesn’t even directly own the residence halls which are the cause of a lot of this debt, but rather fully controls the nonprofit 1831 Foundation which is the legal owner.
UA’s method of growth is not uncommon for states with smaller populations. Public universities in Delaware, Arizona, South Carolina, Montana, Oregon, and Nevada have been doing this for years. UA simply took it to another level.
My worry for UA is what happens when it decides to significantly decrease the value of merit scholarships. A number of top students cannot afford in-state tuition rates, let alone OOS rates, and rely on merit scholarships to be able to attend college.
Wow. That was quite some article. I looked up the NSF information and UA is in the 30th percentile, not that I even really know what statistic is supposed to mean in isolation. I looked up the university where our oldest earned his chemE degree and it is ranked significantly lower. Considering how much industry loves its grads, corporations are obviously not deterred by that #.
I do wonder about what SEA_tide questions…if scholarships drop. Our son would not be a freshman at UA without the scholarship $$. He loves UA. He is also very satisfied with the quality of education he is receiving. (He entered with enough credits to almost be a jr. His credits were not balanced and were strictly math and science. He had DE at 2 other universities, one another state’s largest university, the other a smaller regional university. By comparison, he sees nothing at all lacking at UA in terms of quality of courses, quality of students, attentiveness of professors, opportunities for involvement, etc.)
He does not regret his decision at all. As a matter of fact, he keeps trying to recruit his younger sister to attend. (She has no interest b/c they don’t offer the major she wants, otherwise it would be up there for our family bc UA’s scholarships have been a blessing for our family.)
Thought I would add the following info from the NSF site for 2012:
Earned doctorates
(415 ranked)
Rank Percentile
115 28.3
Full-time graduate students
(554 ranked)
Rank Percentile
129 23.9
Total federal obligations
(1067 ranked)
Rank Percentile
186 18.2
Total R&D expenditures
(643 ranked)
Rank Percentile
190 30.1
@Mom2aphysicsgeek, respecting the issue of the scholarships I actually discussed that issue with my son. I told him that if they offer the scholarships for the next admission cycle (I got the impression that they are going to do so based on our campus visit back in March) that those individuals who receive the scholarship would have them for the 8 consecutive semesters under the terms of the initial award, even if UA decides to limit or cut back on the scholarships going forward.
@SEA_tide thanks for chiming in on this topic. I’ve read many of your posts on this forum as you appear to have first hand knowledge about a lot of the programs that are of interest to my son such as the Blount Undergraduate Initiative. The issue you raise about the scholarships being pulled is a concern of mine (not that it would directly affect my child if he is offered one). The concern I have is in regards to what impact will it have on the recruitment of OOS applicants to Bama. But for the merit aid, we would have never initially considered Bama because like many OOS parents/students our perception of UA were based on very little factual info but rather on false preconceived notions.
I would be curious about what Bama’s long term plans are for the OOS scholarships. Is Bama’s plan to cut back on the merit aid once UA rises to the level of its other top SEC peers such as Florida, Texas A&M and Georgia? Does UA have the in-state population base to sustain a 28,000 student body without the lure of OOS scholarships to attract the huge number of OOS students?
At least for the immediate future, I suspect that UA will have to continue to offer a lot of merit aid to sustain a student body with almost 50% of it being OOS students; however, as the academic reputation of the school rises (which will attract more OOS students on its own) then UA will likely cut back on how generous its scholarships are. For example, the SAT/ACT cutoffs for the scholarships will be raised and/or the amount of money offered could be reduced. I think the 1400 SAT/32 ACT for the Presidential is a prime candidate to be changed in the future especially if as I read in the comments to the professor’s article the top 25% ACT score at Bama is approaching the 31-32 range.
Also pertinent here, UA has repeatedly stated that its OOS recruitment efforts have not resulted in the denial of admission to any qualified in-state applicant. At the current trend lines, can that fact be sustained? At what point does the internal pressure within the state cause UA to pull back a little? These issues could affect the future of the OOS scholarships as well.
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Does UA have the in-state population base to sustain a 28,000 student body without the lure of OOS scholarships to attract the huge number of OOS students?
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No, it doesn’t. The state has a low population for its size, hence the need to attract OOS students. Bama has a large number of OOS students who aren’t on scholarship (or didn’t get much). However, it is the high stats students that Bama needs in the STEM seats. I don’t imagine that Bama will be discontinuing its merit scholarships anytime soon… I can see maybe increasing full tuition to maybe 33, but even that’s not likely to happen this year.
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@mom2collegekids) you are amongst a handful of posters on this site who appear to have a great wealth of knowledge of about UA developed over a period of years. I get the impression that your child/children who attended UA have graduated. If you have been watching UA’s rankings during this period, have you noticed any change in UA’s academic reputation?
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Absolutely! In earlier years, most students were instate and stayed instate. With that, not much knowledge about the school spreads elsewhere. In recent years, with Alabama students coming from everywhere, graduating, and then getting employment elsewhere, outsiders are getting “schooled” on what Alabama’s graduates have to offer.
Again, I would caution about comparing schools’ research dollars if those schools have SOMs. SOMs get a ridiculous amount of research dollars, which really has little/no affect to any undergrad attending that school.
Regarding Professor Know’s screed:
- University of Alabama is not a "land grant" university, as he suggests. Auburn is, but UA is not. This is a clue to how accurate, in general, his article is.
- Knox provides no actual analysis of the financial stability of the university. He simply recites various statistics, some of which are of questionable relevance. So what if UA's debt represents $317 per man, woman, and child in the state? Besides, it sounds relatively small when stated that way. That statistic undercuts his own argument.
- The amount of research activity at a school is of debatable value to the undergraduate students. Most liberal arts colleges -- including elites such as Willliams and Pomona -- do very little research. Yet, many people (including a high proportion of college professors) believe that liberal arts colleges provide a better undergraduate education than research universities. Research is definitely a worthwhile and important aspect of a university. It simply is not that much a factor for undergraduate instruction. If a person is looking for a proxy for quality undergraduate teaching, research expenditures are not the place to begin.
- Even if a person values research, the professor actually fails to put UA's research expenditures in context. The NSF data shows that UA has moved up in the rankings in R&D expeditures over the past five years -- from #205 to #190. This is good news, not bad.
After reading about this issue some more, I do not believe that this issue impacts the quality of undergrad education. The rankings appear to be mostly influenced by how much federal $$ is flowing into the universities for research.
I just noticed that the College of William and Mary is ranked #187 compared to Alabama’s #190 in the research rankings. I would not dare suggest that UA is academically competitive with W&M, but their research expenditures are comparable.
I also find it peculiar that the professor compared UA to its sisters UAH and UAB, but did not mention its real rival Auburn. Don’t know what this tells us, but it seems odd.
He is most definitely NOT an alum of UA, but he IS an alum of UAB, which explains the axe he has to grind. He makes a silly argument that UA is able to get excellent bond ratings for its debt due to UAB bringing in so much money. However, even if this was true, it would be due to the fact that the UA SYSTEM’s, not UAB’s, Med School, is located AT UAB. Bottom line is that he and others are angry that UAB is not considered “the Capstone” of the state’s higher educational system. They conflate ranking of grad programs with quality of undergrad education. While it is true that UA has work to do to improve the rep of most of its grad programs, it is obvious by its popularity with top percentile undergrads that it offers an excellent undergraduate education and life experience. UAB folks are quite simply, very jealous.
@NROTCgrad you make good points respecting whether research dollars make a meaningful impact on the quality of undergraduate education using the examples of liberal arts colleges (LAC). For awhile my son was interested in attending a LAC but he later realized that he wanted to experience the traditional big campus undergraduate experience. One of the reasons he likes Bama is that the Blount Undergraduate Initiative appears to offer him some of that LAC experience at a public flagship university. In regards to the profs allegations respecting UA’s finances; I always thought those claims were the most dubious. It didn’t make sense to me how a geology prof in another state could have a better handle on UA’s finances then the finance experts at Bama.
Mr. Knox thinks the current strategy isn’t making any progress toward becoming a tier-one research university, while it’s incurring a large amount of long-term debt (the cost of building all of those facilities to support the increase in enrollment).
It’s not a question about the quality of undergraduate education. An adjunct professor could teach a undergraduate Chem class as well or better than a full tenured professor. However, that adjunct professor isn’t bring in the research funding that you would expect from a tenured professor.
Rank by Total R&D expenditures:
2004: 191
2005: 196
2006: 196
2007: 198
2008: 212
2009: 205
2010: 206
2011: 195
2012: 194
2013: 190
To generate more R&D funding, UA will have to hire and fund more tenured faculty. Where do you get the funding for more faculty? UA is trying to deal with that issue today, it one reason they are trying to get more state funding (which didn’t happen this year), increase donations/gifts, etc.
I really don’t know how much of a problem this will be in the long term. Most new construction is fundied by long term debt, which then turns into a recurring expense. Is $900 million a lot? It’s a lot more than many of it’s peer’s, but then they haven’t supersized enrollment over the last few years.
@NROTCgrad I think UAH and UAB are part of the UA system, and Mr. Knox wants to change the way the system’s board is setup (hence why he used those two for his examples). Auburn is currently ranked #124 with $147 million in R&D spending (vs. UA’s $55 Million).
Also want to add that UA has signaled through both Chancellor Witt and Dr. Bonner that it will now put extra effort into growing the Graduate School, especially its PhD programs. One step that has recently been taken is to allow UA undergrads to use a portion of their merit aid to pay for enrollment in UA Grad programs.
As it begins to grow its Grad programs, it will be able to become even more selective and/or less generous with merit aid, as research money funded Grad students take the place of tuition paying undergrads. UGA I know has been able to do this with some success, so its not unprecedented.
And yes, I agree with others that quality of Grad programs is not usually that big of a deal for one to have a quality undergrad education and experience, though it would be even better if UA had both. The new Science and Engineering facilities are top of the line, and will attract better faculty and better grad students over time. I trust that the administration knows what will sustain the momentum that has been created in the last twelve to thirteen years, which began by the way, BEFORE Saban, though he certainly has helped.
Some of the variance in amount of R and D funding between UA and AU is due to AU having a big Vet medicine school, an Ag School, and a larger Engineering program. However UA now educates more engineering undergrads than does AU, and has freshman engineers with higher ACT scores.
@Gator88NE your post raises an interesting point. How important is tier-one status for undergraduate students. As pointed out above, LACs don’t get the big bucks research dollars but they generally are regarded as offering the best undergraduate educational experience. However, many LAC undergraduate students go on to pursue graduate and professional degrees at a higher rate than non-LAC students. I have a professional degree (JD) and no ones cares where I went to undergrad school but they do inquire where I went to law school. My son is likely going to follow my path as he will be a liberal arts major.
I don’t think tier-one status is necessary to offer a great undergraduate educational experience; however, I do suspect that the general public (including some employers) are affected by what they perceive as the reputational quality of an institution, which amongst other factors may include tier-one and AAU status. For certain fields with high demand (engineering) it probably isn’t a significant factor but I can see how it can have an affect on the job prospects for others.
These are all very complex issues and I don’t think there is a one-size fits all answer for everyone. For example during our walking tour of Bama’s campus the tour guide stated that the average ACT score at the engineering school was a 28. At my alma mater (UT-Austin) the average ACT score is 30. That means there are Texas kids who score 28-29 who may not get admitted to Texas’ engineering program. Those same kids might get into Bama and qualify for scholarships that bring the cost of their OOS tuition to a level near what they would have paid in-state to attend UT. For those students, Bama would be a great option offering them the chance to pursue their desired major at a flagship institution. I think Bama knows this and this is why there are so many Texans, Georgians, and Floridians amongst those OOS students.
Somewhat off topic, but I just did some quick research on the Association of American Universities (AAU). There is an interesting article from the Lincoln Star Journal where the Chancellor of the University of Nebraska discusses why Nebraska was kicked out of the AAU. The interesting part is he states that had Nebraska not been an AAU member when it joined the Big 10 Conference, it would not have gained admission to the conference.
Looks like Nebraska is the only school in the Big 10 who currently is not an AAU member. In the SEC, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt and Florida are members. (Emory, Georgia Tech, and Tulane are members as well.)