UC and Cal State admissions questions

Parents Forum
1

<p>Since I am unfamiliar with the way admissions works at both UCs and Cal State schools, I thought I would ask parents with experience.</p>

<p>UC requires a personal statement essay, is this correct? Are there any other essays required?</p>

<p>Do the Cal State schools require essays?</p>

<p>Are both UCs and Cal State schools numbers driven? That is, great gpa+great SAT= more probable admissions; or, are admissions truly holistic?</p>

<p>How can a student present his/her "best face" if it's just numbers driven?</p>

<p>How disadvantaged is a student that takes no subject tests?</p>

<p>Do they look at weighted or unweighted grades?</p>

<p>How important is a counselor letter in admissions?</p>

<p>If there's anything else that would be helpful for a student to know when applying to these schools, please share.</p>

<p>I am working with a young lady on her college applications but I confess that I have no experience with UCs/Cal State schools and CSLB seems to be her first choice at this point, with UCR as a possible second choice school. (You can see my other threads on this topic if you really want to)</p>

2

<p>“UC requires a personal statement essay, is this correct? Are there any other essays required?”</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

<p>[University</a> of California - Personal statement](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/personal-statement/]University”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/personal-statement/)</p>

<p>Do the Cal State schools require essays?</p>

<p>No.</p>

<p>Are both UCs and Cal State schools numbers driven? </p>

<p>Cal States, yes + residency in local area. (priority to local commuters)</p>

<p>That is, great gpa+great SAT= more probable admissions; or, are admissions truly holistic? </p>

<p>The top UCs are holistic, particularly Cal and UCLA. The holistic review is less for the “lower” UCs, which are more numbers-driven. fwiw: gpa is much more important to UC than SAT, which is one sitting score.</p>

<p>How can a student present his/her “best face” if it’s just numbers driven?</p>

<p>Cal States: ECs. UC = essays, test scores, rigor of curriculum.</p>

<p>How disadvantaged is a student that takes no subject tests?</p>

<p>Extremely, for competitive programs like Engineering or Cal’s College of Chemistry. Not so much for those applying to liberal arts majors.</p>

<p>Do they look at weighted or unweighted grades?</p>

<p>All of the above, including weighted-capped.</p>

<p>How important is a counselor letter in admissions?</p>

<p>None – won’t accept 'em.</p>

<p>If there’s anything else that would be helpful for a student to know when applying to these schools, please share.</p>

<p>UC loves students who have overcome adversity which, thus, makes a great essay topic.</p>

3

<p>Oh, your last sentence is helpful. I just read this young lady’s first essay for the Common App. and it was definitely about overcoming adversity (losing their house in a fire). Would this be a part of the personal statement essay then? That seems to be the only place to share anything, well, personal.</p>

<p>ECs. Ok, that’s great, as she does have some awards in her area of interest, photography. She also does a lot of community service. So I take it on both apps, there’s a place, similar to the Common App, where they list ECs.</p>

<p>What role, then, does a counselor play in admissions to UCs or Cal States? None?</p>

<p>Thank-you, bluebayou!</p>

4

<p>I agree with blue’s points.</p>

<p>The counselor plays no role in the admissions (good thing given the state of counselors at some public high schools).</p>

<p>On the ‘points’ some (or many or most) of the schools give ‘points’ for various challenges including first gen in college, single parent family, low income, etc.</p>

<p>They do NOT give points for being a particular race since racial discrimination is against the law for admissions to a state U in California.</p>

5

<p>The UCs ‘officially’ no longer require subject tests. But at the same time, they will consider them if submitted. Talk about a mixed message!</p>

<p>CSUs are really committed to their local service area, as was previously stated. Except for Cal Poly SLO.</p>

<p>Just today, however, the CSU system stated that they will be raising tuition and limiting admissions if Californians don’t vote for raised taxes. So, you can probably expect to see admissions becoming more restricted very soon.</p>

6

<p>

</p>

<p>Most CSUs use the [CSU</a> eligibility index](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU), calculated from [high</a> school GPA (CSU method)](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU) and SAT CR+M or ACT scores. Cal Poly SLO has its own “multi criteria admissions”.</p>

<p>CSUs admit by major (see [San</a> Jose State example](<a href=“http://info.sjsu.edu/web-dbgen/narr/admission/rec-1011.html]San”>http://info.sjsu.edu/web-dbgen/narr/admission/rec-1011.html)), with some preference to local applicants.</p>

<p>There is a lot of information about which campuses and majors in CSU are [impacted[/url</a>] (i.e. have higher admission standards than [url=<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>GPA Calculator | CSU]baseline</a> CSU standards<a href=“for%20%5Burl=Cal State Apply | CSU”>/url</a>.</p>

<p>UCs (at least Berkeley, UCLA, and UCSC) do a “comprehensive review”, with involves a holistic reading as described in the [url=<a href=“http://academic-senate.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/committees/aepe/hout_report_0.pdf]Hout”>http://academic-senate.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/committees/aepe/hout_report_0.pdf]Hout</a> report](<a href=“http://www.calstate.edu/sas/impactioninfo.shtml]impacted[/url”>http://www.calstate.edu/sas/impactioninfo.shtml). Basically, each application is scored on a 1 to 5 scale by two readers (with a senior reader breaking the tie of the scores are too far apart). They are then rank-ordered (which may be by division or major – the Hout report indicates that each division at Berkeley has its own thresholds, while each major in the College of Engineering has its own threshold). This process differs from the holistic review processes often described at super-selective private schools, since the UC goal is apparently to have a more consistent and repeatable process that scales to large numbers of applicants and admits. More information for Berkeley [url=<a href=“http://academic-senate.berkeley.edu/committees/aepe]here[/url”>Admissions, Enrollment, and Preparatory Education (AEPE) | Academic Senate]here[/url</a>].</p>

<p>Note that UCSC uses holistic reading from Berkeley and UCLA for students who applied to either of the other schools. But the thresholds for admission are lower at UCSC than at Berkeley and UCLA (so UCSC may use a Berkeley holistic reading score that fails to meet the Berkeley admit threshold, but does meet the UCSC admit threshold). See [url=<a href=“http://senate.ucsc.edu/senate-meetings/agendas-minutes/2011-may-27-senate-meeting/CAFA052711scp1674.pdf]here[/url”>http://senate.ucsc.edu/senate-meetings/agendas-minutes/2011-may-27-senate-meeting/CAFA052711scp1674.pdf]here[/url</a>] and [url=<a href=“http://senate.ucsc.edu/senate-meetings/agendas-minutes/2011-november-09-senate-meeting/CAFAar1011-scp1677.pdf]here[/url”>http://senate.ucsc.edu/senate-meetings/agendas-minutes/2011-november-09-senate-meeting/CAFAar1011-scp1677.pdf]here[/url</a>]</p>

<p>In practice, since not everyone applying to UC has sky-scraping academic credentials, the academic credentials are very important differentiators between applicants, in contrast to super-selective schools which can fill their freshman classes many times over with applicants with sky-scraping academic credentials and therefore use non-academic criteria more heavily (sky-scraping academic credentials are a necessary, but nowhere near sufficient, factor in gaining admission at the super-selective schools).</p>

7

<p>Thank-you, all for the information. I know the student will apply to UCR and possibly UCSB (likes the location) and UCSC, but we’re still checking into programs offered at each school. I’m not sure about any other UCs. The state schools will be UCLB, Fullerton, and Sacramento State. And, as stated, she’ll be applying for art/photography, though there’s also an interest in psychology, perhaps as a minor.</p>

<p>What is weighted-capped? I’ve not heard that term before.</p>

<p>Also, at all UCs and Cal States, is it required that you apply to a major? Or is that only for things like engineering?</p>

<p>Yes, I heard about the threat of tuition hike unless we pass a tax hike…sigh.</p>

<p>Student’s local schools are UCSD and SDSU, neither of which she wants to attend, so she will not have the advantage of the local school. This is information that is important to know about.</p>

<p>I think she can focus on her talent in photography (awards, upcoming internship, etc), community service, athletics (gymnastics), and excellent u/w gpa, and the challenges she faced.</p>

<p>Oh, one more question. Do these schools like to see students with work experience? Is there some place on the app. to talk about that?</p>

8

<p>Applicants to CSUs specify majors, and CSUs likely require applying to declare or change major once there (could be difficult if the new major is impacted). UCs vary by campus and division as to whether major choice matters and how difficult it is to declare or change major.</p>

<p>“Weighted - capped” GPA appears to mean the GPA as calculated by UC and CSU methods – 10th and 11th grade course grades in a-g subjects, with up to 8 semesters of honors courses (as listed in <a href=“http://doorways.ucop.edu%5B/url%5D”>http://doorways.ucop.edu</a> ) given +1 weighting (see [here](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU)</a>). CSU will consider 12th grade course grades if available, but UC does not. 9th grade course grades are not used, but the courses must have been passed with C or higher grades to count for fulfilling a-g requirements.</p>

<p>Of the CSUs you list, Long Beach and Fullerton are impacted for all majors, and Sacramento is impacted for psychology and art majors. If she is concerned about getting into the CSUs, she may want to add a safety which is not impacted for art, and is not campus impacted. (Fullerton, Long Beach, Sacramento, San Diego, San Jose, and San Luis Obispo are impacted for art majors; only Bakersfield, Channel Islands, Dominguez Hills, East Bay, Maritime Academy, Monterey Bay, and Stanislaus are not campus impacted)</p>

9

<p>Good stuff you guys…but</p>

<p>" Cal States: ECs. UC = essays, test scores, rigor of curriculum."</p>

<p>Does that mean Cal states like EC’s? I thought only the poly’s had a place for that. </p>

<p>I also like this site</p>

<p>[CaliforniaColleges.edu</a> - Home](<a href=“http://californiacolleges.edu/]CaliforniaColleges.edu”>http://californiacolleges.edu/)</p>

<p>And the way UCLA details it’s freshman admit profile.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/adm_fr/Frosh_Prof12.htm[/url]”>http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/adm_fr/Frosh_Prof12.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think it shows the importance of the number of A-G’s and weighted classes at the top schools.</p>

<p>And op, I think Sac state is considered safety for kids who meet the requirements, at least in the area, but maybe that’s changing.</p>

10

<p>(Semantics) All UCs and CSUs are state schools so I guess you meant ‘Cal State’ in your post. It’s CSULB - not UCLB.</p>

<p>There are two systems (3 counting CCs) - the UC system and the CSU system. Their missions are somewhat different as well as their target students. The UCs generally have a higher admission standard than the CSUs however, there’re differences in the selectivity between the various UCs as well as between the various CSUs and it’s possible that some CSUs could be more selective than some UCs (ex: maybe CalPoly SLO more selective than UCM or UCR but I haven’t checked stats recently).</p>

<p>The UCs calculate the ‘UC GPA’ based on the grades received in particular ‘UC accepted’ weighted courses (APs). An ‘A’ in an AP would be weighted at a 5 rather than a 4 for an A in a normal course which can make a GPA end up being greater than a 4.0. However, they cap the number of courses they’ll weight - ex: if one aces 15 AP courses they won’t all count as 5 - only a limited number. </p>

<p>Not all UC and CSU campuses have the same requirements as far as declaring a major when applying. Most allow one to apply as ‘undeclared’ but CalPoly SLO, for example, requires one to declare a major first (I think). Some of the other Unis require a declaration to get into the engineering beforehand. The ‘cut’ is often higher for engineering as well - i.e. the credentials need to be higher. It varies with the campus and program. Some majors may need one to transfer in after starting and then making a cut into that major (possibly Film at UCLA or econ at some campuses - not certain the way it is at the moment)</p>

<p>As far as I know, the UCs don’t care about ‘locality’ - they accept equally from anywhere in the state but the CSUs do (generally) have some bias for locality.</p>

<p>Just assume costs will increase. I don’t think California is unique among state colleges in this area and privates increase costs as well. </p>

<p>Work experience is an EC - I assume they’d give points for it but I don’t know.</p>

<p>Check out this website - [University</a> of California - Admissions](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/index.html]University”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/index.html)</p>

11

<p>Note that extracurriculars are “not considered” by most CSUs, including Fullerton, Long Beach, and Sacramento. Go to [CollegeData:</a> College Search, Financial Aid, College Application, College Scholarship, Student Loan, FAFSA Info, Common Application](<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com%5DCollegeData:”>http://www.collegedata.com) , use the search for public schools in California, click on the desired college, and click on “Admissions” to see what criteria are used. Of the several CSUs that I checked, only San Luis Obispo and Maritime consider extracurriculars.</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>The cap is for admissions eligibility only.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not true. The adcom will also see also the weighted, uncapped gpa. What they do with that figure during holistic review is up to them.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>All CSU’s give priority (big time) to local residents.</p>

13

<p>^^ I don’t understand what you’re saying blue. The UCs calculate a UC GPA based on capped weighted grades (5 point scale for weighted, 4 point scale for non-weighted) in particular UC eligible courses and then that GPA is what they use in admissions.</p>

<p>I’m referring to UCs - I don’t know what the CSUs do.</p>

14

<p>

</p>

<p>Whether the local priority is “big time” depends on the CSU campus. Also, the non-impacted CSUs define their local admission areas as “State of California”, and other CSUs have somewhat different ways of defining their local admission areas. See [url=<a href=“http://www.calstate.edu/sas/publications/documents/CSULocalAdmission-ServiceAreas.pdf]here[/url”>http://www.calstate.edu/sas/publications/documents/CSULocalAdmission-ServiceAreas.pdf]here[/url</a>].</p>

15

<p>

</p>

<p>UC admissions readers get to see three GPAs (unweighted, fully weighted, and weighted with 8 semester limitation) along with courses and grades. Weighted GPAs are calculated by +1 for honors courses as listed on <a href=“http://doorways.ucop.edu%5B/url%5D”>http://doorways.ucop.edu</a> , not by whatever weird weighting methods that high schools sometimes use.</p>

16

<p>Well, I think we’re saying the same thing. The weighted courses with the cap is the UC GPA which determines eligibility as blue says but of course they look at more than that including courses that would be beyond that cap.</p>

<p>Exactly how much they use that UC GPA beyond the eligible level I think we wouldn’t know unless someone here is on the admissions staff and even then different UCs use different criteria. For example, UCLA received over 61,000 applications and I don’t doubt that they used the UC GPA for more than just the eligibility level for most of the acceptance with some outliers in certain target areas (athletes, etc.). I’m fairly certain they like to have their GPA and SAT stats be high to assist with rankings. Of course I’m guessing on this latter part.</p>

<p>Regardless, in the context of the OP’s questions about admissions the knowledge of the capped weighted UC GPA is important because it’s always possible the cap would prevent someone from getting accepted where otherwise they might have thought they had a higher GPA.</p>

17

<p>Thanks for the corrections, GladGradDad. I knew what I meant but somehow typed UC instead of CSULB.</p>

<p>The question of gpa is one that the student should perhaps take up with the guidance counselor at school (they have a meeting next week). I hear she’s really on the ball (she’s new and has a great reputation). Should the student and her mom ask the guidance counselor to look at her list of colleges and give feedback? (For those who don’t know, I’m a homeschool mom and did a good job with my homeschooled son, but am out of my league a bit with regards to traditional transcripts, gpa, etc)</p>

<p>This student has only one AP class before this year and is taking one this year, but has mostly As in her coursework, with a gpa of 3.878.</p>

<p>I do know I looked at formulas for eligibility and she looks good to go, but it’s important for all of us to have realistic expectations.</p>

<p>Thing is, from what I could see on CC from last season’s UC admissions (didn’t look into the CSU stats), there seemed to be some pretty arbitrary decisions: kids with higher stats getting rejected and kids with lower stats getting accepted. So, I have encouraged her, and her parents agree, as long as she’s filling out the two apps, she should throw in maybe one or two extras.</p>

18

<p>Ok, looking at the link shrinkwrap sent, CaliforniaColleges.edu, why on earth is CSU San Bernadino the most selective with the highest enrollment rate?</p>

19

<p>There are always some seemingly arbitrary decisions where at a particular campus some higher scoring students are rejected and lower scoring ones accepted. Part of that is the holistic effect of giving ‘points’ for things outside of the pure scores including things like single parent family, first gen, economic level, sports stars, particular other skills and backgrounds they’re looking for to fill out the class.</p>

<p>But some of this a student can’t do much about (single parent, first gen, etc.) so they should focus on what they can do something about such as getting the best grades they can, having some ECs that might look attractive, and taking more rigorous courses rather than mostly the easier courses.</p>

<p>Also - for the UC admissions, it’s just about as easy to apply to multiple (or all) UCs as one since it’s just checking more boxes on the app (and paying more money - an app fee per checkbox). It’s sometimes useful to check multiple boxes to ensure admission into an acceptable (to the individual) campus. The app cost will usually pale in comparison to the actual college cost.</p>

<p>Another point - CSUs are less expensive per year than UCs. However, some people say it may be generally more difficult to complete all the coursework within a particular timeframe (like 4 years) on some CSU campuses vs UC campuses due to availability of classes. I don’t know if this is still an issue because I know some CSU campuses (such as SDSU) have taken steps to resolve the issue.</p>

20

<p>So would you say many/most applicants check most boxes and just suck up the app fees? CSU fees are reasonable; UCs are getting up there.</p>