UC Berkeley = bad?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
41

<p>
[quote]
You questioned whether Berkeley was even prestigious in its own country. I'd say that's a pretty good example of someone "saying that Berkeley is an inferior school." Again, this isn't even an argument of Cal vs. Stanford. Stanford speaks for itself on this forum. This is a question of giving the #1 ranked public university in the world (don't believe me, look up the rankings) the respect it deserves.

[/quote]

whatever. the OP asked if it's true that UC Berkeley in not as good as Stanford; i said no it's not an inferior school but it may be perceived to be due to its lack of popularity compared to Stanford's. i have merely been giving the OP an explanation as to why people may say that UC Berkeley is not as prestigious/good as Stanford. i'm not saying that it is an inferior school. i am sorry if you misinterpreted what i was saying but if you can't understand it now then too bad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And I have much respect for WU, but comparing them is not only unfair, it's ignorant.

[/quote]

how exactly is it unfair? in terms of popularity UC Berkeley and WashU are more prestigious in certain parts of the country than in others. i live near WashU and, here, going to WashU is like going to Harvard. however, in other parts of the country going to WashU is like settling or the school is unheard of (i have heard many WashU graduates from my high school attest to this.). likewise, here hardly anyone even knows about UC Berkeley or that it is "the #1 public university in the world." if they do know anything about it it's just that "hippie school." it's just not associated with being a big deal like Harvard and Stanford.</p>

<p>in the case of schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford, those schools are popular in every region of the country. the popularity of these schools is evident in pop culture. i mean look at all the movies and shows that have character attending Harvard (Legally Blonde), Princton (Fresh Prince), Stanford (Orange County). how many mainstream movies have kids attending UC Berkeley? no idea :P but i would bet that there are fewer pop culture references to Berkeley.</p>

<p>none of this means that the school is actually inferior. it only explains why it is perceived to be. the average American has not heard of WashU, Vanderbilt, UC Berkeley, etc. as often as they have heard of Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford. if people have not heard of it they will think that there is a reason why and the reason that most people come up with is that that thing is not as good. </p>

<p>just look at advertising and brands; Stanford, Harvard, etc. are just like your big name brands.</p>

42

<p>
[Quote]
here hardly anyone even knows about UC Berkeley or that it is "the #1 public university in the world." if they do know anything about it it's just that "hippie school." it's just not associated with being a big deal like Harvard and Stanford.

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>Not according to the vast amount of threads about that topic on this site. </p>

<p>And I also strongly disagree with you saying that the avg. American hasn't heard of UCB as much as they have heard of HYS. I think that's a pretty inaccurate statement. Maybe they find HYS more "prestigious," but I would be willing to bet they'd at least heard of Berkeley, or grouped it into the same conversation.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
i mean look at all the movies and shows that have character attending Harvard (Legally Blonde), Princton (Fresh Prince), Stanford (Orange County). how many mainstream movies have kids attending UC Berkeley? no idea :P but i would bet that there are fewer pop culture references to Berkeley.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Funnily enough, Berkeley is mentioned in all three of the movies/shows you mentioned (the lesbian girl that Elle meets went to Berkeley for her PhD, Will Smith's aunt gave a lecture at Berkeley, Berkeley is the alternative college in Orange County).</p>

<p>There's a very large list of movies/shows where Berkeley was either mentioned or the character(s) attended it. There was a large list on Wikipedia, but it seems to have been removed/moved. Either way, both Berkeley and Stanford appear prominently in pop culture.</p>

44

<p>Why do these threads always start on the Stanford forum?</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
Not according to the vast amount of threads about that topic on this site.

[/quote]

well this is a college forum... kids on here are actively researching colleges... a majority of kids on here are from the northeast or west coast where UCB is more popular... are you starting to see why CC is a poor sampling to get an insight into how popular UC Berkeley is with the average American?</p>

<p>also, referencing CC weakens your claim because if you look in the "What are My Chances?" area, it is clear that schools like Harvard, Stanford, etc. are among the most popular/desirable on this forum. so bringing up CC actually legitimizes a key aspect of my hypothesis, that UC Berkeley is not as popular as Harvard, Stanford, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And I also strongly disagree with you saying that the avg. American hasn't heard of UCB as much as they have heard of HYS. I think that's a pretty inaccurate statement. Maybe they find HYS more "prestigious," but I would be willing to bet they'd at least heard of Berkeley, or grouped it into the same conversation.

[/quote]

well, what's inaccurate about it?</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
Funnily enough, Berkeley is mentioned in all three of the movies/shows you mentioned (the lesbian girl that Elle meets went to Berkeley for her PhD, Will Smith's aunt gave a lecture at Berkeley, Berkeley is the alternative college in Orange County).

[/quote]

haha i bet you had to Google for those :P.</p>

<p>"Funnily enough", "Berkeley is the alternative college in Orange County." now that's ironic that you would reference that. the average American watching this movie who actually paid attention to this unimportant detail would probably come to the conclusion that Stanford was "better" that Berkeley.</p>

<p>in addition, all of your references to UCB were in small characters or insignificant parts of the overall plot of the television show or movie.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Either way, both Berkeley and Stanford appear prominently in pop culture.

[/quote]

the references that you provided does not support your claim that Berkeley appears "prominently" in pop culture. all of your references would indicate that "promoninently" is overstating the pop culture references to Berkeley. again the references to Berkeley were not key to the plots of those movies.</p>

<p>EDIT:
just wondering why do you care so much about whether or not Berkeley is popular? whether or not it is popular is irrelevant to it being one of the best schools in the world. since you're probably going to respond to this by asking, "why do you care so much," i'll just tell you now. i keep posting on this thread to help you all understand my hypothesis as to why UCB is often perceived to not be of the same quality as Stanford.</p>

47

<p>
[quote]
haha i bet you had to Google for those :P.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I just happened to know those (which is why I found it funny that you mentioned those ones =p).</p>

<p>
[quote]
the average American watching this movie who actually paid attention to this unimportant detail would probably come to the conclusion that Stanford was "better" that Berkeley.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think so. The counselor was also portrayed as an absolute idiot (who said he was "in" at Stanford, that he didn't need a safety -- effectively saying that Stanford was his safety!)</p>

<p>
[quote]
in addition, all of your references to UCB were in small characters or insignificant parts of the overall plot of the television show or movie.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wasn't saying that it did -- I was just pointing out the odd detail that all three of the movies you referenced also mentioned Berkeley. It was an aside. You can ignore it.</p>

<p>The fact is, most universities have minor roles in movies/shows. And even when they're mentioned, it's usually minor.</p>

<p>
[quote]
again the references to Berkeley were not key to the plots of those movies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There's a thread in the Berkeley forum discussing all the references to Berkeley there are in movies/shows. Stanford too has many references.</p>

<p>Hell, there was an actual movie made about and named after Berkeley.</p>

<p>Berkeley</a> (2005)</p>

<p>
[quote]
just wondering why do you care so much about whether or not Berkeley is popular? whether or not it is popular is irrelevant to it being one of the best schools in the world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The bottom line is: we know that Stanford is more renowned nationally. We know that it will therefore be perceived as better. But we don't think it's in doubt that Berkeley has much national prestige (and much more so internationally). That is all.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
The bottom line is: we know that Stanford is more renowned nationally. We know that it will therefore be perceived as better. But we don't think it's in doubt that Berkeley has much national prestige (and much more so internationally). That is all.

[/quote]

ok then... we've pretty much been in agreement this whole entire time.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
just wondering why do you care so much about whether or not Berkeley is popular? whether or not it is popular is irrelevant to it being one of the best schools in the world. since you're probably going to respond to this by asking, "why do you care so much," i'll just tell you now. i keep posting on this thread to help you all understand my hypothesis as to why UCB is often perceived to not be of the same quality as Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Newjack: A similar question could be put to you: why do you care so much that your hypothesis about Berkeley is understood, or agreed with? That's a bit hypocritical on its face. </p>

<p>Personally, I responded above because I thought you made a silly analogy between Wash U and Berkeley. Anybody who put Berkeley in that kind of category, I thought, was actually ignorant about the research university domain in the US. On the other hand, I don't really care whether Berkeley is "more popular" -- it doesn't as an institution need that kind of approprobation as its qualities stand on their own. As I said, it doesn't match Stanford's prestige on the undergrad level, but on the overall academic (read: graduate school) level it actually is about the only university in the US that broadly goes head-to-head with Stanford across the same breadth of academic disciplines with the same high ratings.
.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The bottom line is: we know that Stanford is more renowned nationally. We know that it will therefore be perceived as better. But we don't think it's in doubt that Berkeley has much national prestige (and much more so internationally). That is all.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>KD80: I think you made your point.</p>

<p>
[quote]
ok then... we've pretty much been in agreement this whole entire time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think we are done here. ;)</p>

50

<p>
[Quote]
well this is a college forum... kids on here are actively researching colleges... a majority of kids on here are from the northeast or west coast where UCB is more popular..

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>ok, I just asked a friend of mine in Ohio (midwest) whether, in convos with friends about colleges, UCB or WU comes up more often. She said "Berkeley. All the smart kids talk about wanting to go there along with Yale and sometimes Virginia. But out-of-state admission is really hard...."</p>

<p>
[Quote]
well, what's inaccurate about it?

[/Quote]
The statement...that I said was inaccurate....that's inaccurate.</p>

<p>
[Quote]
in addition, all of your references to UCB were in small characters or insignificant parts of the overall plot of the television show or movie.

[/Quote]

If it makes you feel any better, in many of Michael Crichton's novels (Jurassic Park, Prey, Andromeda Strain, etc) the main character always, and I repeat, always has a degree from Cal.</p>

<p>Ahh, sorry, don't want to break the peace. Just wanted to clear up my points, gonna hop on over to the Yale thread now ;)</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
i would bet that more people know that John Elway went to Stanford than know that scientists at Berkeley discovered 17 elements.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'd say more people are familiar with "The Play" that prevented John Elway from going to a coveted bowl game during his senior season. ;)</p>

<p>Go Bears!!</p>

52

<p>lol...this seems like the right place to put this.</p>

<p>YouTube</a> - Bear vs. Tree</p>

<p>enjoy! ;-)</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
Why do these threads always start on the Stanford forum?

[/quote]

I second that... why???</p>

54

<p>Here's an interesting quiz. Match the following university presidents with their personally-earned college and doctoral degrees:</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Berkeley (Chancellor)</li>
</ol>

<p>A. B.A. History Stanford, Ph.D. Economics Harvard
B. B.A. Biology Rochester , Ph.D. Neuroscience Georgetown
C. B.A. History Bryn Mawr, Ph.D. American Civilization Pennsylvania
D. B.Sc. Mathematics Toronto, Ph.D. Physics Yale
E. B.Sc. Chemistry Queen's (Ontario), Ph.D. Biochemistry Temple
F. B.S.E.E. Villanova, Ph.D. Electrical Engineering SUNY-Stony Brook</p>

<p>From an academic reputation standpoint, the bachelor's-conferring institutions rank as follows:</p>

<ol>
<li>Stanford, 2. Toronto 3. Rochester, 4. Bryn Mawr, 5. Villanova 6. Queens</li>
</ol>

<p>For Ph.D. conferrals, the ranks are:</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard, 2. Yale, 3. Pennsylvania, 4. SUNY-Stony Brook, 5. Georgetown, 6. Temple</li>
</ol>

<p>Using a lowest-sum method, our ranks are:</p>

<p>A. Stanford-Harvard 2, D. Toronto-Yale 4, C. Bryn Mawr-Penn 7, B. Rochester-Georgetown 8, F. Villanova-Stony Brook 9, E. Queen's-Temple 12.</p>

<p>Ranking the academic reputations of the university presidents' own alma maters we get:</p>

<p>Yale (A)
Berkeley (D)
Harvard (C)
MIT (B)
Stanford (F)
Princeton (E)
If you were asked to match: Stanford and Berkeley president and chancellor, with Toronto/Yale and Villanova / SUNY, and you THOUGHT you were a sophisticated colleges-savvy high school student, you'd match Stanford's president with Toronto/Yale, and Berkeley's with Villanova/SUNY. It's so obvious. But the top universities don't think like you think.</p>

<p>If you were asked to match MIT and Berkeley president and chancellor with former posts
Yale Provost, and Bell Labs scientist and MIT Dean of Science, and you thought you were more than just an average sophisticated high school student, because you knew that Berkeley was founded by Yale grads, you'd never guess that Berkeley landed the Bell Labs/ MIT guy. </p>

<p>If you were asked to guess which university, Stanford or Berkeley, received a $113 million gift last fall from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation to fund 100 endowed chairs, in order to attract and keep top-grade professors, and you knew that Bill Hewlett was a Stanford grad, the answer would be a no-brainer, wouldn't it. But your brain isn't as knowledgeable as you think it is.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
If you were asked to guess which university, Stanford or Berkeley, received a $113 million gift last fall from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation to fund 100 endowed chairs, in order to attract and keep top-grade professors, and you knew that Bill Hewlett was a Stanford grad, the answer would be a no-brainer, wouldn't it. But your brain isn't as knowledgeable as you think it is.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure I was following the logic of your post completely. What I do know is that Berkeley received this $113 million gift. At the time the Hewlett Foundation said almost apologetically that they'd give more if they could, but they couldn't, something I guess to do with stock prices. Stanford received something on the order of $400 million from the Hewlett Foundation earlier if I recall. But it was Bill Hewlett, I think, who said that a lot of his family were either Stanford or Berkeley grads and that both universities were therefore significant to the Hewletts.</p>

56

<p>I don't understand what's Homeschooldad trying to say. I guess my brain is not as knowledgeable as I think. </p>

<p>/brain asplodes :p</p>

57

<p>^^ me either -- I saw it in another post and didn't get it. Perhaps I'm just daft (or my brain just isn't working right now).</p>

58

<p>It took me 3 reads to completely get it -- i.e. HomeschoolDad's post -- but it is saying essentially this, I think:</p>

<p>If you look at things purely in terms of name academic prestige, you'll be surprised because top universities don't think the way you do:</p>

<p>Examples: </p>

<p>Yale's president went to Stanford and Harvard. Berkeley's chancellor went to Toronto and Yale (and is also the MIT/Bell Labs guy referred to later), and meanwhile Stanford's president went to SUNY/Villanova and Harvard's went to Bryn Mawr and Penn. He thinks most people might have guessed a different matching of these schools and where their leaders had gone more in line with "normal" prestige ordering.</p>

<p>Finally, the Hewlett Foundation would be expected to have given their money to Stanford (which they actually also did) and it is counterintuitive that a name so associated with Stanford would donate so heavily to Berkeley.</p>

<p>So, in short, our rigid senses of hierarchy of academic institutions is belied by complexities in the real world; in other words, we shouldn't always look at things through the prism of perceived prestige (say it five times fast: prism or perceived prestige; I am trademarking it).</p>

<p>HOMESCHOOLDAD: Did you really homeschool your kid/s? How did that work out for you? I'd love to do so in the future if I could. But then, I'd love to do a lot of things.</p>

59

<p>That was absolutely a wonderful post ! Since I got wait listed for Stanford and accepted into Berkeley.</p>

60

<p>But Berkeley start with the letter "B" and Stanford starts with the letter "S". So, if we assign each letter a numerical value based on where they lie in the alphabet, then:</p>

<p>Berkeley (B)= 2 < Stanford (S)=19</p>

<p>Therefore Stanford has to be better, since 2<19.</p>

<p>That's how pointless this argument is.</p>

<p>PS: If you include the FULL NAMES of the universities, you would actually get:</p>

<p>University of California Berkeley (U)= 21 > Leland Stanford Junior University (L)= 12</p>

<p>So, in this case, Berkeley wins because 21>12</p>