On the other hand, I really don’t think a policy like that would be publicized widely if at all implemented. Also, I scanned through the US News and QS methodologies. So long as International representation is robust, the rankings don’t really care about OOS/IS split.
Back in the '80s and early '90s, Berkeley’s percentage of international undergraduates was about 3%. There’s a Berkeley OPA (Office of Planning & Analytics) slide that shows 3% in 1990 specifically. And for much of the '80s and '90s, the percentage of in-state undergrads hovered around 90%. Remember also that back then in those ancient days, not as many kids went OOS for college.
I’m not sure I agree with the notion that % international or % out of state has any meaningful impact on Berkeley’s ranking, reputation, quality, diversity, or overall undergraduate educational experience. California, the state, is extremely diverse on so many fronts, and Berkeley (and all UCs) can fill a very diverse class based on California’s overall demographics, socio-economic variability, first gen students, and almost any other metric I can envision.
Berkeley has been seen as an academic superstar for as long as I can remember because of the quality of its graduate school (top ranked grad school according to the NRC rankings published in '82 and '95, 2nd to Harvard in 2010), the brilliance of its faculty, Nobel Laureates, MacArthur genius grant winners, National Academy of Science members, and overall quality of the undergrad & graduate student bodies. Whether Berkeley’s International/OOS percentage sits at 10% as it did in 1990, or approaches 30% as it did a few years ago, I’m not too sure I agree with the claim that geographic diversity of the student body makes a discernible difference in the overall perception of academic quality or the undergrad experience at UC Berkeley.
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I do think International representation is more important than OOS representation given the implications for rankings, immigration and long-term economic impact. I really wouldn’t want to go back to the 3% days and would rather find major ways to grow enrollment while making minor policy tweaks to prioritize IS over OOS.
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I personally really value the international presence at Cal and the diversity of perspectives and experiences it brings, and obviously it’s also an important source of revenue for the school. But this must also be balanced not only with this recent mandate to increase in state enrollment, but also the primary mandate of the UC system to serve the residents of California. I mean, it’s ridiculous to even say, “So it’s complicated,” because it so obviously is. If it weren’t, they would have figured out the optimal percentages long ago.
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I would also note the recent study that California’s 40 million population includes 10.5M immigrants, and that 46% of California children have at least 1 parent who is foreign born. That’s what I meant about California already having a “built-in” diversity advantage. California has people from everywhere, and that’s also part of what makes California so unique, and from my perspective, so great. I just think the “international/OOS diversity” angle in UC admissions can be overplayed when the state itself is a total melting pot with a level of diversity not seen in most of the United States.
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I agree (and in fact that is the case in my own family - one immigrant parent and actually D23 herself was born outside the US), so I get that. I still personally think it’s a bit different to have heritage (even when it is close, 2nd gen heritage) and living and attending school in another country. It’s not about checking a diversity box, but about the differences in educational systems and the various life opportunities and experiences that do differ - sometimes quite significantly - from those in the US, even in a diverse state like California. And personally I believe they do add something that benefits all students in the university community.
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Completely agree!
And Cal was a powerhouse long before they began accepting so many more OOS to pay the bills.
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What are you feeding them mom/dad?
Completely agree on everything.
My father went to Berkeley back in 1960 got his degree in Engineering back then.
He is a CA native (as I well as myself) and he felt back then he was a minority on campus because CA was a melting pot back then.
My cousin went to Berkeley in the 70’s and she transferred out because she felt like it was too much of a melting pot then for her.
Point being is that UC’s don’t need the OOS and international students to provide the diversity. It is already in CA.
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exactly- we’re the ones paying California taxes, we should definitely have a priority
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For sure- Californians should absolutely have priority. It is our state university which exists to serve the interests and needs of the state and which is funded by our state taxes. But I also think there should be some room for others, especially international students. I think that kind of diversity of experience and perspectives adds to the intellectual vitality and to the overall strength of the community, and benefits all. But Californians should - and do - have the vast majority of seats at the metaphorical UC table.
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I agree with this – exactly. Son currently at a UC really values the interaction with students who come from outside CA, regardless of how diverse the students from CA itself are (and they are!). Says it feels different to learn alongside students who are from another country or from the East Coast vs. students who are demographically quite different from him but are from Fresno or Arcata, etc. All of it is valuable. I agree that in-state students need to be the priority by far, but I would not at all be in favor of reducing drastically to sub-10% levels or something, especially for the flagship schools. Reality is that families should start to take notice of campuses like Merced where yes, the program is still growing, but it offers a UC-quality education. I remember when Irvine was looked at as “lesser” UC – Merced will one day be more attractive to families than it is now, and there will be some new upstart campus that nobody wants to go to.
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I think diversity is not just different races, genders and ethnicities. Diversity in academics is also about different educational systems. A public school student from MA and a private school student from PA, might bring different learning experience than another additional student from the same high school that is already sending 100 students every year to UC. Point is not a zero sum result. Assume for a second that UCs can support 100000 IS students and zero OOS students. Universities grow to then support 120000 students by attracting additional 20000 students with much higher revenue/student from OOS. If there is outright no OOS recruitment, the capacity might wither away. What about Cal students going to UM, UVA, UIUC, UW, UF, UT etc. If those universities are forced to stop accepting Cal students because they need to now support extra IS students from their own states because UCs wont accept any OOS students then UCs will have more IS students to compete with who by own volition are going to those schools. So it is not a zero sum game and the ecosystem is interconnected.
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Yes, this is my feeling as well. Of course, California is diverse, the Bay Area is diverse, but that’s not the same thing. Using our own example - as mentioned above, we have one immigrant (born and raised in another country) parent, D23 was actually born in another country (but we moved here when she was very young), heck she even spoke a language other than English before learning English. We maintain close ties to heritage country, she still speaks the two main languages of that country (for that matter, in a manifestation of true Bay Area diversity, she speaks 5 languages), we have lots of family abroad that we are in close communication with, and in the past have spent some summers in heritage country. So D23 is quite familiar with the culture of heritage country and has been exposed and is continuously exposed to heritage country culture. And yet…
She is a Californian through and through. Exposure to another culture, even when it is a heritage culture, is not the same as having the life experiences of people who have lived in that country all their lives. It’s just not. She has a cousin in heritage country who is just a few years older than she is, and their life experiences and views of the world couldn’t be more different. And, sure, it’s great that D23 has had direct exposure to that culture and maintains those ties, but she is not OF that culture, not in the way that she is of Californian culture and Bay Area culture (which has love of diversity baked right into it). Her main life and educational experiences were very much shaped by where she lives, not where her relatives happen to live.
Completely agree.
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Same for me. Although I was born and raised in California, my parents immigrated to the US in the '80s and I am still connected to the homeland by spending a lot of time there with them.
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I’m a parent of a current UCLA student and I consider myself a Californian (grew up in CA and still maintain residency in CA). However, I’ve been stationed overseas for so long, I’m no longer able to claim in-state for my D23’s app process. Here’s my perspective on all this as I think about my “OOS” D23’s chances of getting into a UC this coming March.
I think it all boils down to what the governor, UC leadership, and the CA residents want for the future of our UC schools. The UCs attract more applicants from around the world due to their prestige and brand-name recognition (evident in QS/THE/US News rankings). This is most likely due to their careful selectivity, carefully built, merit-based and holistic review processes, ever-increasing the quality of their graduates. This, in-turn, have attracted even more applicants from around the world, making top UC schools become even more competitive than other state schools.
CA politicians and parents of high-stat students then are “perplexed” as to why the UC schools are turning away so many of their hard-working children (especially now that the process is test-blind and are taking in even more qualified candidates). For example, I have a CA friend whose daughter had a 4.5 GPA and didn’t get into ANY of her top 5 UC choices last year. As you can imagine, her parents were extremely upset as tax-payers and I can understand why they would be.
I think it all boils down to a choice of priority. Do you, as CA tax-payers, see UC schools as serving the CA community, providing opportunities for quality education and creating upward mobility for hard-working CA students? Or do you want the UC schools to maintain its world-class competitiveness and exclusivity, giving equal opportunity to the best and brightest students from all over the world? Based on the governor and McCarthy’s direction given to UC leadership, it looks like this decision was already made.
Thankfully, my D23 already has some great choices (UMICH, etc.), so we’re not stressing over this. However, as a Californian and a Bruin family, we would wholeheartedly love to see our D23 get accepted to UCB or UCLA (her top two choices).
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Note that UCB, UCSF and other UCS have one of the highest federal research funded $s in the country. So all American tax payers are also contributing billions to support UCs research and other activities to keep them as top academic colleges. If UCs become shut down to out of state students the diversity of academic experience and collaboration (not just race, gender, ethnicity) will also suffer. This is the same complaint PhD students have. Most universities rarely hire from their own PhDs to maintain exchange of academic ideation. In addition OOS students pay $31k/year more than IS students. Other flagship state Us will be glad to take that money.
The whole thing is interconnected and not just a UC specific decision.
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That is horrifying. But I imagine that’s the reason for things like 9% ELC and guaranteed admission. So that is somewhat built into the proposition - top students DO get a spot in the UC taxpayer-funded system. And UC Merced might be a great option for some students. I do think, however, this ELC program would be more successful (in terms of retaining California student talent and making good on the promise of a UC education for top students) if there were more than one campus available. Even two. Better three. Obviously, UCB and UCLA wouldn’t be on the table. But maybe throw in a Davis? Or a Santa Cruz?
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I don’t think Santa Cruz can absorb more students until they make some progress on their housing issues.
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