You noted that you won’t have to take out loans for Lehigh - did you get a full-ride scholarship or have some other income that will cover Lehigh’s cost? You also say that you will have to take out $50k/year in loans for Berkley. Are you parents or someone else willing to co-sign for those loans as you will not be able to take out that much in loans on your own? But if you truly can attend Lehigh without taking loans, that sounds like the best decision for you knowing that you still have to pay for med school.
You claim (in Post #3 above) that you are making your decision “based on education mostly.” Yet none of your observations about Berkeley pertain to the quality of undergraduate education there.
Again, this is totally irrelevant if your primary concern is the quality of undergraduate education. So I’m starting to doubt that this is really the most important factor for you.
If your primary concern is undergraduate educational focus and quality, then Lehigh is the clear winner. Lehigh is also the obvious winner financially.
But if in fact you are more concerned with non-classroom factors, like name recognition or social environment, and are willing to assume $200,000 of debt for them, then go with Berkeley.
You will probably find that most people in this forum will regard “undergraduate educational quality” and “low cost” as critically important. They will therefore recommend Lehigh. I would too.
“If your primary concern is undergraduate educational focus and quality, then Lehigh is the clear winner.”
Huh? How so? I disagree.
I’m on the same page as Post #9 from @ClassicRockerDad:
To elaborate on the “California budget” situation: demand for a state-subsidized UC education has been soaring in recent years, and the growth of the system hasn’t kept up. So every UC campus, including Berkeley, is currently under intense public pressure to squeeze as many students as possible into already-crowded classrooms and dorms. This “impaction” means that students may have trouble getting the classes they want, or into the degree programs that they want. Furthermore, this situation is expected to persist for the foreseeable future: it’s not like several brand new UC campuses are going to suddenly materialize and relieve the pressure.
By the way, many out-of-state institutions (both public and private) are aware of this situation, and see increased opportunities to recruit California students. This includes Lehigh.
http://www1.lehigh.edu/news/provost-announces-launch-western-regional-office
Lehigh is an all grant no loan school for students whose families are making under $75k a year. The cost of attendance is about $67k. My education would be funded (if I attend) by federal and institutional GRANTS amounting to about 65k. They are also offering me work study to help pay the $2k remaining. @adlgel
With a family income less than $25k/year, you’re fortunate to have a nearly full ride to Lehigh because you can use the balance of the ~$5500/year federal student loan for travel and books. Work study will be paid as you earn it, so that can cover your spending money.
Lehigh seems to be the better undergrad fit here for a pre-med, even at similar $. Given the cost difference and your financial situation, no question Lehigh is better.
I appreciate your comment. Sorry, I didn’t write paragraphs about Berkeley’s academic quality. I am in class right now and don’t have that kind of time. The only way to summarize the quality of a Berkeley education would be to acknowledge the known prestige that comes along with it. @Corbett I see where you are coming from though.
An undergraduate cannot borrow anywhere near that much without a cosigner. Cosigned student loans are generally a bad idea for both the student and cosigner anyway, since having to take a loan implies that neither has the money. $200,000 undergraduate debt plus $300,000 medical school debt by age 26 (in the best case of going to and graduating from medical school), beginning to be paid off sometime after age 30 (i.e. after residency, when a physician finally gets physician pay) can take a long time to pay off, and probably requires continued living like a frugal student and/or delaying other life goals that require money (e.g. moving to a desirable place to live, buying a house, raising children, helping children with their college costs so that they will not have to go into huge debt that you will have to cosign, etc.).
And if the student takes $200,000 in debt and does not go to medical school, that is still a huge burden to pay off, particularly if the student graduates with a major like biology that does not have the highest paid job prospects.
And yet, even with a “squeezed budget,” UCB is still a better education. Here are the facts according to US News:
“The student-faculty ratio at University of California–Berkeley is 17:1, and the school has 59.6 percent of its classes with fewer than 20 students…The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 97 percent.”
“The student-faculty ratio at Lehigh University is 10:1, and the school has 47 percent of its classes with fewer than 20 students…The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 95 percent.”
Governor Brown has improved the CA budget situation significantly and UC tuition may increase for the 1st time in 6 years. So while money problems aren’t going away, IMO, UCB still provides a better “educational focus and quality.”
And for the record, no, I’m not a Cal alum.
Also, according to Kiplingers, for OOS students, Lehigh is $62,000/year versus $57,000/year for Berkeley. So, while $5,000 may not be much, Berkeley is a bit cheaper. In terms of best college value, Kiplingers rates Berkeley at #72 and Lehigh at #87.
And the weather is here is nearly “shorts and t-shirt” year round. At least for me.
The US News “small classes” stats don’t reveal how many of the smaller classes at Berkeley are taught by grad student TAs or part-time adjuncts, rather than by tenure-track professors. However, the student-faculty ratios may provide a clue. Incidentally, Lehigh has increased faculty hiring; their current ratio, as per the latest CDS, is down to 9:1.
Note also that Berkeley, as per US News, has a higher percentage of “classes with 50 or more”. And at Berkeley, that can be a whole lot more than 50 – like hundreds or even 1000+ students. Some 2016 comments on Berkeley class size from another forum:
For comparison, Lehigh’s entire freshman class is about 1250 students.
And even if those stats lead someone to believe that UCB is “better” than Lehigh - I think many people would be hard-pressed to argue that it is $200k better. Anyone who can go to college for free at a well-respected institution that has a program which suits their needs should think long and hard about incurring significant debt to go somewhere else.
Yep, $200,000 better IMO. And IMO, $200,000 over a lifetime of earnings is insignificant.
And did I say the weather is better?
Considering the time value of money, getting in a $200,000 hole will be a problem for years to come. It is not just paying back the money, but the loss of the ability to save for retirement. That could end up costing a lot more than $200,000. Plus paying for medical school. OP would be in debt for years even after med school.
It does not matter what the list price or average price is for each school. It matters what price each school offers the OP as an individual. The OP stated that Lehigh offered enough for it to be debt-free, but Berkeley would require $200,000 in debt. So the cost factor strongly favors Lehigh for the OP, even though it may not for many other students.
@sushiritto The OP stated in the first post that Lehigh would be debt-free while Berkeley would entail $50k/year in loans for a total of $200K in loans (with med school still to come). The list price is not important in the decision process – the actual net price to a particular student is what needs to be considered.
$200,000 of undergraduate debt will probably be more like $300,000 after adding interest by the time the OP finishes medical residency and earns the income to begin paying it off. But s/he will also have another $300,000 to $400,000 after adding interest of medical school debt. Even at physician pay levels, that is a very heavy debt burden to have to pay off. Now, if the OP continues to live a frugal student lifestyle for several years afterward while working as a salaried employee at a large medical group (i.e. no startup costs to start or purchase a small independent practice), s/he may be able to pay that off in reasonable time. But if, after more than a decade of frugal student living, the OP wants to upgrade his/her lifestyle, that debt burden can prevent it, or require delaying or foregoing other financial goals like buying a house, raising kids, helping kids pay for college, retirement, etc…
We are facing a similar decision here. My son is also doing premed and is trying to decide between Lehigh and Franklin and Marshall. For us, Lehigh is the expensive college at 30K per year while F&M is closer to 20K. I live close to both and my ex is a Lehigh alum so I can tell you that Lehigh(and F&M) is very well respected. Lehigh is known more for its engineering program than sciences though. Most classes are taught by professors and only a few intro classes are very large. Frats are very popular though not everyone participates. Weather is not as nice obviously and you will get a lot of exercise going up and down the hill. Lehigh has a very traditional east coast feel with brick buildings. S is leaning toward F&M right now due to price. Ask any specific questions you have. I would say Lehigh is good for undergraduate, save your money for a high rated med school. No one is going to look down on a Lehigh degree.
And yet, many doctors still take the debt on and still live a good life, saving for retirement and their families, at least the doctors in our area.
I’d rather take-on the $200,000 of debt plus interest and go to Cal rather than Lehigh, but that’s me. Who knows what happens 4 years down the road.
If it were a simple question, then OP wouldn’t be asking it. I’m biased. A great many in my family went to Cal. They all loved it.