<p>
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You go to Berkeley, and you don't know this? Every single engineering major is impacted. What do you think impaction means?
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</p>
<p>(I never said I was a student at Berkeley.) I'm well aware that engineering majors are impacted.</p>
<p>What I was disputing was your assertion that Berkeley locks you into a major (which you may or may not be doing poorly in, but that isn't neither here nor there) and you cannot change. That is flagrantly untrue. You have asserted it many times and not provided any evidence--other than anecdotal--that it actually happens.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I was disputing was your assertion that Berkeley locks you into a major (which you may or may not be doing poorly in, but that isn't neither here nor there) and you cannot change. That is flagrantly untrue. You have asserted it many times and not provided any evidence--other than anecdotal--that it actually happens.
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<p>In this thread, I was speaking specifically about engineering. In relation to the original question, the OP runs the significant risk of coming in as an ME student, finding out that he actually prefers some other engineering major, and then being unable to switch over and hence being stuck in the ME major that he no longer wants. </p>
<p>As for other examples, all I have to do is point to the same webpage that I have cited before:</p>
<p>Grade Point Average is also a significant consideration for admission to the College [of L&S]. Students who meet all other criteria and have a 3.0 or higher GPA are more likely to be approved.</p>
<p>Most of the other majors are in L&S. Hence, even assuming that you are able to successfully switch to one of the other colleges (which is unclear), if you can't get into L&S, then, again, you run the significant risk of having to declare a major that you don't really want. For example, what if you come in as ME, find out that you actually want to do physics (which is quite related to ME), and then find out that L&S won't let you in?</p>
<p>If you still don't believe this can happen, then I will make you the same offer that I made to you before. Let's write a joint email to the advisors in L&S and ask them to stipulate exactly what it takes for an engineering student to switch over to L&S, and, specifically, whether such a switch is guaranteed. Then we can post whatever their reply is.</p>
<p>^^ and you still have not provided any actual evidence that shows that COE majors can't get out of the COE if they want to get into L&S. I'll ask that you not mislead prospective students unless you have actual data to support your (nonsensical) claim.</p>
<p>Or you could just go to MIT and it you don't like it, just transfer to Berkeley. Berkeley is very transfer friendly. The same can't be said of MIT.</p>
<p>Berkeley is NOT transfer friendly. Berkeley accepts VERY few transfers from other universities because it is obligated to accept so many transfers from community colleges.</p>
<p>
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And it's probably true that most MIT-ers are geniuses, but I'm not a genius. I know my stuff, but I'm not math olympiad good (not even AMC-good), so I'll probably feel like an idiot at MIT.
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Don't worry, everybody at MIT feels that way too. :)</p>
<p>I don't know the percentages, but somewhere between many and most MIT students weren't involved in olympiads or even AMC tests in high school. (I didn't even take physics in high school. While I wouldn't exactly recommend that route, I still survived MIT-level physics, earned a B, and learned a lot.) Most MIT students are not geniuses, just very smart people who are passionate about math or science or engineering.</p>
<p>I would urge you to listen very closely to what cellardweller is saying, because I think his points are crucial. (I will also note that when his daughter was deciding on schools, I showed her around MIT, and I basically said all of those things. And now she knows they're true! :D) I also hope you'll come to Campus Preview Weekend to check out MIT for yourself. And if you have any other questions, hop on over to the MIT</a> board -- a bunch of us are students and alums, and we answer questions to the best of our ability.</p>
<p>EDIT:
For the year for which I have data (class of 2010), 53 students turned down MIT to go to state schools, which is 11.2% of those who turned down MIT, and 3.6% of those admitted. That year, three students turned down MIT in favor of UC Berkeley.</p>
<p>Almost everyone in our family has gone to Cal at one time or another, including my D, who took multivariable calc there as a senior in hs. She is now a freshman at MIT. Here are the pros and cons, based on her (and my) experiences:
Class size - there were 500 students in her calc class, discussion sections taught by grad students. I'm sure there are lots of small classes at Cal, but don't expect to be in them your freshman year. MIT also has large classes, but we're talking more like 100 people, and unlike Cal, the discussion sections are often led by the professor or by a senior level grad student or post-doc. There is a very strong culture supporting undergrad education at MIT and incredible research opportunities in all departments, not just the sciences. Not that you can't get a great education at Cal, but you have to fight harder for it.
Living situation - Something like 97% of all MIT undergrads live in campus housing. No all freshman dorms. You get to choose your dorm during freshman orientation, and many people end up living there for all 4 years. Each dorm has its distinct personality, so you end up living with a lot of like-minded people. This may be D's favorite thing about MIT.
Course Load - yeah, a lot of work, but everyone does their problem sets together. MIT emphasizes collaboration and reduces competition by making the first semester pass/no record.
Not just engineering - both schools have a broad base of excellence, not just in the sciences.
Weather - In New England you start getting frost in October (which btw is a beautiful month), and the weather gets to a California-level of warmth in May. Weather is variable in winter - rain, snow, freezing rain, sleet, freezes, thaws, ice on the sidewalks, mud on the sidewalks, muddy snow on the sidewalks... Sometimes you wake up to a spectacular blue sky - that means the temperatures have plummeted from freezing to polar. Also, Boston is on the extreme eastern end of its time zone, so in Dec-Jan it's dark outside at 4 pm. It's not a good place for people who suffer from seasonal affective disorder. Oh yeah, it's hot and humid for the 3 months of summer.
Getting away from home - If you're at MIT you'll only see your family at Christmas and during the summer. It's too expensive and time-consuming to travel otherwise. However, if you make your travel plans early (like, way early) you can get good fares on JetBlue.</p>
<p>Go to CPW and see what you think. Hope this helps!</p>
<p>If you decide not to continue in Engineering, MIT has major benefits.
MIT kids are headhunted by the leading investment banks and management consultancies. You will have access to career opportunities that UCB kids can only dream about.</p>
<p>I love it how people put down Cal by saying "discussion sections taught by grad students"...then elevate MIT by saying, "the discussion sections are often led by the professor or by a senior level grad student or post-doc"...</p>
<p>Yeah, a huge difference when you're talking about general calculus...:rolleyes:
Care to post some stats to back up your claim?</p>
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Not that you can't get a great education at Cal, but you have to fight harder for it.
[/quote]
Damn right! Cal doesn't coddle. This is the real world.</p>
<p>I see some Lehman Bros., Goldman Sachs analysts here...
Given the financial turmoil, job opportunities in energy and engineering are going to be more plentiful for a several years than banking.</p>
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There is a very strong culture supporting undergrad education at MIT and incredible research opportunities in all departments, not just the sciences. Not that you can't get a great education at Cal, but you have to fight harder for it.
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</p>
<p>As an added note, it's not the great education that you have to fight for at Cal; the education is there, with top professors, top grad students, all of whom you can interact with. It's the opportunities that people often say you have to fight for at Cal. But even then, I have difficulty believing that it's terribly difficult to get in on research. Both schools spend about the same amount on research (though if you count LBNL, Berkeley would be ahead by a few hundred million/year), so research opportunities are abundant. People assume that since it's public, it's going to be difficult to get involved; hell, even current students assume that. Here's the site for undergrad research:</p>
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I'm sure there are lots of small classes at Cal, but don't expect to be in them your freshman year.
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<p>Cal offers freshman seminars, which are small. (Not to mention you can take small lectures your freshman year...)</p>
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the discussion sections are often led by the professor or by a senior level grad student or post-doc.
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</p>
<p>The same happens at Cal. Some discussions are led by professors and many senior-level grad students. And of course, many are led by grad students period.</p>
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If you decide not to continue in Engineering, MIT has major benefits.
MIT kids are headhunted by the leading investment banks and management consultancies.
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</p>
<p>Er, so if you're not going into engineering, MIT is advantageous because therefore you're going into IB? If you decide not to continue in engineering, Berkeley probably has the most benefits, considering that all of its programs are ranked in the top 10 (NRC, Gourman, US News, THES, etc.), whether an engineering field, a biological science, a humanity, a social science, etc.</p>
<p>Not to mention Berkeley's business school is consistently ranked in the top 10, as is its econ program. And Berkeley's grads get as many opportunities at graduation as MIT's; recruiting will be similar where the quality of programs is similar.</p>
<p>UCBChemE, I'm not trying to put down Cal at all. I have my MBA from the Haas School, my dad and aunt both got their undergraduate degrees and PhD's at Cal. Several of my best friends graduated from there, and several of my D's best friends are loving their freshman year there. What I'm trying to point out is that there is a perhaps subtle difference in undergraduate teaching philosophy between Cal and MIT. I don't have statistics, but let me give you an example. My D's mv calc TA at Cal (a family friend) has kept in touch with her since she went off to college. Turns out that her math TA first semester was a new PhD from Cal who is now a post-doc at MIT. Our friend was horrified. "They make the post-docs teach recitations!" At Cal it's a mark of your status if you don't have to TA the beginning classes. At MIT everyone teaches, it's part of the culture.</p>
<p>As for small classes, if you're in math or science, the freshman seminar will be a change from all the huge lecture classes that you'll be taking otherwise. Some people love those big classes - my husband did. I checked out in them; I needed a smaller environment to stay engaged. That's just me. I would have been lost at Cal as a freshman, but a lot of students thrive there.
MIT isn't for everyone either. It's all about fit. You'll notice that I didn't recommend to the OP that he go to one school or the other, just that he take a look at MIT before making a decision.</p>
<p>^ Yeah, telling the OP to consider MIT while giving anecdotal information about Cal's GSIs vs MIT's GSIs was not ill-intended...:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Just because they're post docs doesn't mean they're great teachers. A lot of post docs are fob foreigners. I'd be very wary of a school's policy that states <em>everyone</em> has to teach. </p>
<p>As for class size, these are the stats from USNWR:
% Classes fewer than 20/ % Classes more than 50:
Berkeley: 61% / 14%
MIT: 61% / 14%</p>
<p>% Faculty Full Time:
Berkeley: 91%
MIT: 89%</p>
<p>When you're talking about lower-division math and science lectures, what does it matter if there are 100 students or 400 students? It's not like a class of 100 students fosters close interaction.</p>
<p>To the OP:
To get a full-ride from Berkeley means that you'll get the Regents Scholarship and invitations for this year's interviews have already been released. Did you get one? In addition, even if you got an interview, very few interviewees were actually granted the scholarship (out of the already very small group).</p>
<p>With 4,700 undergrads at MIT as opposed to 22,600 at Berkeley, there is simply no comparison between the level of support provided at each institution. </p>
<p>My D has a freshman advisor (full professor), an academic advisor for her major (full professor), a departmental advisor (administrator to plan her premed schedule) a graduate advisor on her floor in her dorm, a research advisor (Harvard Med school professor) and a grad student tutor. In addition her sorority provides additional tutoring and support services. MIT also arranged for her volunteering and shadowing physicians at Mass General. Her academic advisors typically supervise six to ten other students so it is very easy for her to get any face time with them. </p>
<p>Unlike what appears to be a recurring problem at UC campuses for students to register for popular classes in so-called "impacted" majors, my D has had no problems getting into to any of her classes even changing the recitation class times to fit her schedule.</p>
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[quote]
I think the enclosed article is a fair representation of the issues facing Cal undergrads.</p>
<p>UC Berkeley's lack of services leaves many undergrads to sink or swim
`Little fish in a big pond'
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</p>
<p>Yes, because an article that's about 7 years old is still applicable, right?</p>
<p>Most of the facts in that article are very different today.</p>
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With 4,700 undergrads at MIT as opposed to 22,600 at Berkeley, there is simply no comparison between the level of support provided at each institution.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd like to see some real data that shows that there is no comparison. Thus far, all the numbers seem similar. At Berkeley, I'm willing to bet there is as much help, but students aren't always aware of it. I think that's Berkeley's biggest weakness--communicating all that it offers to its students. On top of that, many of the students assume that it's too overcrowded to get them, so they don't bother, and that's far from the case.</p>
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Cal claims around 50 engineering students each semester participate in Berkeley's own UROP program.
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<p>Where did you get that number? UROP is just one of myriad programs Berkeley offers. Again, see the site I linked to -- research isn't difficult to get in on.</p>
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Freshmen can get into small seminar style classes taught by full professors even for the intro science classes if they want to avoid the larger lecture format.
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</p>
<p>Clearly, not all freshmen can, or not all freshmen want to, as still 14% of its courses are over 100 and 61% are under 20.</p>