UC Berkeley or UCLA for Applied Math?

Transfer Students UC Transfers
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I’ve recently been accepted to both UCLA and UC Berkeley under the Applied Math major and I’ve been having a lot of trouble deciding where I want to transfer. I am not yet sure what I’m going to do after I finish my undergraduate degree but I either want to go to graduate school for pure math or become an actuary. I was wondering whether UCLA’s new financial actuarial mathematics major is better than Berkeley’s applied math with a concentration in actuarial science. The average starting salary for applied math majors at Berkeley was $77,000 in 2014, whereas the most recent survey of UCLA grads (2011) said it was $40,000 for applied math and $55,000 for pure math. Is there some kind of self-selection going on or do employers really prefer Berkeley students over UCLA students?

If I take the other route, will going to UC Berkeley make me more competitive as a graduate school applicant? According to rankings, Berkeley is #1 for Pure Math whereas UCLA is #4.

Does my choice really depend on what I want to do (actuary vs. graduate school) or is Berkeley better in both? Is there anything I should consider other than ranking/networking in deciding where I want to transfer? Both schools are paying most of my tuition and living expenses.

Any advice in general?

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UCLA’s actuary program is likely the same in quality as Berkeley’s. Same material, so no reason to expect any significant difference.

The difference in average starting salary may be explained to some degree by the possibility that many Berkeley grads stay in the Bay Area after graduating, where living expenses are higher and are thus earning higher salaries to offset that. I seriously doubt employers have a preference between Berkeley and UCLA students.

Graduate schools won’t care whether you went to Berkeley or LA for undergrad. What matters most are the grades you earn, letters of recommendation, statement of intent, your compatibility with their program, that kind of stuff.

Given these facts, I think you’ll do fine at either school. I guess you should decide which school to attend based on personal interests, fit, and the appeals of the campuses and areas in which they’re located. Good luck in your endeavors.

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@Cayton thank you for your response.

UCLA’s financial math program has 2 courses specifically for actuarial exam preparation, whereas Berkeley just has you take a few math, stats, and econ courses as part of the cluster and I guess expects you to prepare for the career on your own; they just give you the required math tools.

Will I have more opportunities to interact with professors at Berkeley (and therefore get better letters of recommendation)? Berkeley is known for being a big research university, is this also the case with math? Math doesn’t involve any physical experiments or anything so do math undergrads have the opportunity to work with professors at all? Will I have more internship opportunities at Berkeley vs. UCLA?

I guess I have my mind set on CAL already and I’m just wondering if there is anything I’m missing out on by not attending UCLA besides the 2 actuarial courses and the networking (I’m from LA and will likely move back after finishing at Berkeley).

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I can’t speak for Berkeley. I don’t go there. But I imagine that there’ll be some professors that you can get close interaction with and some professors with whom you won’t have the same luck. Same as with any large research university.

The internship opportunities are most likely similar in level at the two schools.

With regards to going to Berkeley over UCLA, I doubt you’ll be at a disadvantage. Sure, UCLA’s program has a couple of courses that are nice to take, but you can probably self-study that material or learn it in some form or another at Berkeley.

Admittedly, with regards to networking, I don’t know much of a disadvantage you’re at because you’ll be going to Berkeley and not LA, but I still think a Berkeley degree will carry you a long way in the LA area.

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I have heard the math prodigies at Berkeley are mind-blowing, so unless you’re a prodigy expect to move to the middle of the curve.

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@disyatov12 Hey I’m in the same boat as you! I was accepted to both Berkeley and LA for applied math and am thinking of going into a career as an actuary. I’m also split for both schools and I’ll be visiting both soon to see if I can get any closer to deciding. I’ll give you some of my own thoughts for LA v. Berkeley thing:

Both schools are good. Like Cayton said the experience/opportunities will probably be the same in terms of difficulty and preparation. Ultimately I think it’s down to LA area vs SF area, maybe where you want to live long term. I’m kinda leaning toward Berkeley too just because I’ve lived in SoCal all my life and want to go some here different.

In regards to actuaries, don’t expect specifically actuary-tailored classes to prepare you that much for the exams–no matter what major or program you’ll be in, a heavy bulk will be self-studying (what I’ve learned from talking to actuaries like on ActuarialOutpost). Those courses may help you get a good start in preparing for preliminary exams, but that’s pretty much it–most of it will be self-studying on your part, and you’re on your own with later exams.

Another thing for me (I don’t know if it applies to you) but I don’t want to go into a specific actuarial science major because it’ll be pidgeonholing myself–what if I end up not liking the actuary career and want to do something else? Can’t do much if I graduated with an actuarial science degree. It’s good if you’re deadset on become an actuary I suppose, but I want my degree to be broad and applicable to other careers since I’m not 100% about actuarial work myself (but leaning to it). Remember that anyone can become an actuary regardless of major–it’s just a matter of passing the tests (and incidentally most actuaries happen to be math majors). But there are instances of physics majors, even engineering majors, etc. who have went into actuarial work.

But that’s just my two cents in regards to actuaries in specific, since I don’t have plans to go into pure math. Like I have been told before, you can’t go wrong with either choice!

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Chiming in, but I’m in the same boat as an aspiring actuary. I got in for Financial/Actuarial at UCLA and Applied Math at Berkeley.

I completely agree with @Bearly. I talked to a graduating senior from UCLA who worked extensively with the math department as well as a stats professor from UCSB and they gave me the a lot of insights:

UCLA graduates about 60 actuarial track students per year (from both financial/actuarial and applied math) and combine that with another 40 from UCSB (15 from their combined BS/MS program) and another 50 from Cal you have well over 100 aspiring actuaries graduating a year from those three UCs alone. The issue here lies in that LA county has about 60 total actuarial jobs available, with most nowhere near retirement age, and the bay area is not much better. Essentially it’s a saturated market here in California and the competition is fierce. Chances are you’ll have to relocate east. Other schools like USC, UOP, Pepperdine, U of Washington, and U of Oregon are also bringing in actuarial tracks soon so don’t expect a drop in supply in the future. Also as Bearly mentioned earlier you don’t need to be on the actuarial track to become an actuary so there is even more unseen competition…

From Actuarial Outpost and Reddit/Actuary the actuarial field also generally disregards school prestige and really only factors Tests Passed, Tests Attempted, VEEP credits, and communication skills in hiring. In that regard, UCLA’s set course requirements which are more tailored to the material on the CAS/SOA preliminary exams are a better fit. But as Bearly said, they are by no means a replacement for the countless hours of self study required. That said, the elective nature of Berkely’s Bachelor of Arts seems like it would be much easier to enjoy, academically, than UCLA’s rigid Bachelor of Science course requirements.

@disyatov12 I also would not put too much stock in a survey with 38% response rate (Berkeley’s). The ones who fill out surveys are the ones who got brag-worthy jobs out of the gate while the unemployed tend not to respond. That said, asking students and local actuarial clubs for specifics painted a picture that UCLA did slightly better job in prepping their students as they generally had higher scores on their preliminary exams which does affect job placement. I also got the impression that as far as networking goes, UCSB was best followed by UCLA and then Cal.

Another insight I learned from a UCLA math grad student who went to Cal for undergrad is that finding significant research experience as a math major is nearly impossible at Cal for transfers. With the four semester term cap for transfers in place there, a greater number of grad students, and the fact that it usually takes two or three semesters for students to generate enough rapport or reputation to join a research group, it just leaves you with minimal opportunities. UCLA is much better in this regard in that they have less grad students to compete with, have a greater number of local universities that host opportunities as an outside student (CSULA and CSULB have a large number of underutilized math REUs available), and that there is no semester term cap which leaves room for you to extend your stay as needed to accumulate experience. If your planning on grad school, unless you know that you’ll be in the top 5-10% of your class, UCLA makes more logical sense.

I’m personally leaning towards UCLA right now because I feel that I’d thrive more in UCLA than surviving at Berkeley and that any perceived difference in rankings between Berkeley and UCLA is negated by the increased opportunities as an math undergrad at LA.

In any case, I hope you guys can share any additional information you find as I feel it’s truly an information battle for most of us choosing between UC Berkeley and UCLA.

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This discussion has been so helpful! I know UC Berkeley’s math department is above and beyond that of UCLA’s. But how does UC Berkeley’s statistics department compare with that of UCLA’s? I am more of a statistics person, so any information will definitely help! Thanks in advance! (:

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My brother is currently an applied math major at Berkeley and although he is tired/sleepless all the time, he loves it there. The education you receive at Berkeley is top notch, (UCLA,too, of course!) and he loves the atmosphere. So I guess you need to sort of “feel it out”? If the environment is a factor to you, that is. And I wouldn’t say that UCLA has more opportunities than UCB either, they are both great schools so I think the opportunities will differentiate based off of what you end up focusing on. My brother is leaning towards financing and likes what UCB has to offer.

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@ActuaryorBust Thank you for your very detailed response! It was very insightful!

I didn’t know there were so many graduates seeking only a few positions-- does this mean that the unemployment rate for math, economics, and statistics majors trying to find actuarial work is very high? Beanactuary states that the unemployment rate for graduates with an actuary degree is virtually zero.

CAL is known for being a big research school; how hard is it really to get experience as a transfer student? I’ve heard 60% of their students are able to do research as undergraduates. Are these mostly the freshmen and sophomore students?

Where did you read about the 4 semester term cap at Berkeley? I was at the transfer reception yesterday and they told us we were expected to finish in 4 semesters but technically could stay there for 6 semesters if we wanted to (the last semester wouldn’t be covered by financial aid though).

Are there any statistics on the average GPA for math majors at UCLA? I know the average at Berkeley is a 2.7~2.8, which is daunting.

If UCLA is slightly better for students planning on going into the actuarial field, do you think Berkeley is slightly better for grad school in pure math?

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@disyatov12 I think the issue there is that an actuarial science degree is fairly new in the west coast. Simon Fraser (in Canada) was traditionally the only school to offer an “actuary” degree on the west coast. UCSB, UCLA, and CSU Fullerton are all newer programs and combined with SFU are currently the only west coast schools that offer a full fledged “actuary” degree which shows that you don’t need an actuary degree to be an actuary. That said, talking to members of the Cal Actuarial League and Bruin Actuarial Society provided that while the “actuarial” track jobs are cut throat, the overall unemployment is less than average because the ones that don’t get jobs right off the bat are either usually in a good position to go to grad school in a different discipline (Econ / Stats / Finance) or take lower paying non-actuarial work in pursuit of other professional titles (MBA, CPA, CFP, CFA) while self-studying for the exams.

As far as the research, what I’ve gathered is that finding some research experience at either school isn’t too difficult if you network: the issue is more of the amount and quality of the research. Ideally these labs are avoiding the students that provide meager returns for their effort of getting them up to speed. Candidates need to show that they can contribute more than enough to justify spending the resources to train them, and for transfers like us that is significantly harder as we have less time to prove our worth and less time for them to get their investment back. Realistically, Berkeley’s renowned MSRI is practically impossible for transfer undergrads with the scarce undergrad spots already being vied for the second freshmen stepped on campus. Comparatively, UCLA Anderson is practically off-limits to undergrads limiting opportunities for business related research there. Berkeley URAP can also be difficult to go through as the opportunities usually require you to finish Math 104 and 113 / 128A before being seriously considered and most transfers take a semester or two to finish those essentially leaving you only two or three semesters to be eligible for research. It’s not that opportunities are aimed at freshmen and sophomore students, but rather they, on average, have more time to make themselves attractive for the highly desired spots. That grad student I talked to likened it to making a sports team: transfers are like new players who are fighting for playing time while the more settled freshmen admits are like the veterans who usually have the starting spots locked up. Not to say you can’t do it and the really talented ones will rise to the top, but for most it’s an uphill climb. In contrast UCLA has less grad students which means more room for undergrads and the quarter system allows you to get the “prerequisite” courses done sooner giving you more eligible time for research.

Regarding the semester cap, the administration totally confused me when they said that at the reception. A counselor I talked to referred me to this article: http://blog.admissions.berkeley.edu/2012/06/triple-majoring-faqs/ and added that a fifth semester can be petitioned and is usually granted if your adding a early second major or a minor but a sixth semester is usually reserved for extreme situations and is not very common. You could always take summer classes as well but that can be pricey. The vibe I got was they are not-so-subtlety pushing you to get out at the conclusion of your supposed “final” semester, but I’m hoping someone else can chime in on this.

Like Bearly, I’m also not considering pure math for grad school, but everything I’ve heard and read up on is that it’s really all about the GPA and letter of recommendation(s). So for that route it might be best to go to the school who has more faculty working on specific topics that interest you and do your best to network yourself into their labs. From everything I’ve learned, the rankings out there are for grad schools and generally are very distorted at the undergrad level. However, IMHO Cal definitely has the upper hand when it comes to econ and stats at the undergrad level while that distinction isn’t as clear for math–even varying from topic to topic.

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@lindyk8 After visiting Cal this weekend, I totally understand your point about Cal math prodigies: I feel like I’ll be fighting for the B’s and C’s when it comes to dealing with class curves if I end up choosing Cal.

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@actuaryorbust, don’t let that part deter you. (Easy for me to say.) B-)