UC Berkeley vs Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
41

<p>Hey,</p>

<p>If you want to get to know your professors it’s really not that hard. I’ve spoken to three of my professors on my own accord and every single time they have been genuinely interested in who I was and what I was interested in. I’ve had professors extend office hours so they could continue talking to me, and surprisingly I asked them some things that were unrelated to the course and they had no qualms about it. The professors at Berkeley are so down to earth and personable, but many of the students come in with the stigma that “professors are unaccessible.”</p>

<p>Example: After class one day I walked up to one of my professors and asked him if he had any research positions open. He instantly told me yes and offered to sit down with me one day and talk about my interests and get me in contact with the right people. </p>

<p>Berkeley is amazing, and anyone who tells you different just doesn’t have the audacity to step up to the plate and take a swing.</p>

<p>I cannot speak about Princeton as I have no personal experience. But after a year at Berkeley, I know that I made the right decision coming here.</p>

42

<p>"You’d be quite surprised. I myself know people who got into Princeton or other top private schools, chose Berkeley (usually because of money), and then wound up on academic probation. While some of them eventually graduated, some didn’t. Even the ones who did graduate still emerged with trashed academic records that essentially precludes them from ever attending a decent grad school. </p>

<p>Again, my philosophy is, why take chances when you don’t have to? It is almost impossible to actually flunk out of Princeton. Berkeley offers you no such assurances."</p>

<p>(I respect the user’s above post and would like to offer my perspective).</p>

<p>That doesn’t mean that going to Berkeley would be a bad choice. Yes, it might be harder @ Cal because grading is rigorous and it may not offer such assurance, but don’t we live in a life that doesn’t offer assurance? I mean, the point of a college is to prepare future leaders of a better tomorrow, so that being said, I think the strict grading will show students that they have to work crazy hard in order to achieve what they want. And it isn’t impossible, I think. If you’ve got the drive and motivation, you’ll succeed in no matter what you do. (And yes, I have reason to believe the OP is a motivated student). Perhaps people who end up going to Berkeley go on probation because again, Berkeley doesn’t offer a guiding hand or small class sizes or the other perks of a private school. However, the lack of assurance, I think, would motivate this particular student to make sure he/she does well in his chemistry classes. Not that I am against Princeton’s policies at all because I do agree it is a wonderful school, but I think undergrad Berkeley would show the student the good and the ugly of the real world, where he/she can foster at Berkeley and then have the determination to go do graduate work in a state outside of CA.</p>

<p>To the OP: A little thing about class sizes. I once visited a private school out near the East Coast, and while I do have to say that having ~10 students in the class was nice, I think that even in a class of 500, you can still learn the same things. Ultimately, it will be up to you to take the initiative to make sure you stand out in your classes. Perhaps it is just me, but being in a classroom with more students motivates me to do well because I always try to shine (not in a conceited way, but just wanting to do well). I even remember taking community college courses in large class sizes, but the profs knew me because I asked questions, took notes, participated in class, chit-chatted with the prof during office hours, etc. stuff that I would think could naturally fall within your personal qualities. It all depends on the type of student you are.</p>

<p>What should you do in such a dilemma? I realize the choice is tough. Ivy vs. Berkeley, as they say. Please do not simply choose Princeton because of its brand name. Please do not choose Berkeley because of its name as well. Choose a college that you think you will benefit the most from. College is again, and I will highlight this so much, what you make of it. You can’t go wrong at either Princeton or Berkeley. I understand that saying “no” to any of these schools will be difficult, but the choice you make ultimately depends on you, and you’ll go through the results of your choice, taking advantage of every opportunity you have (Sorry, I’m a bit of an existentialist, so I always go with “facing your own consequences for your actions”). No matter what, make sure you take the opportunity you have at any of these two schools. They are amazing, and you should be VERY proud of getting into both of them. Heck, even I’m proud of you, and I don’t even know you (though we could know each other if you go to Cal :))</p>

<p>Again, congratulations on such fantastic opportunities! I wish you the best of luck! I’ll be following this post to continue to give my feedback.</p>

43

<p>and so i have heard about the intense cut-throat-ness of CoC. the stories are quite graphic T T… but my friend is doing well. he says high school prepared him well;; i dont know how legit that comment is and how much it applies to me. HAHA -0-</p>

<p>I hear amazing things about princeton & i’ve seen the amazing-ness of berkeley too. I’m meeting up with a current princeton student in a couple days. I’ve already met many berkeley students. plus, about 20-30 people from my school are going to berkeley, and 4 other than me are going to princeton, and i’ve talked with ALL of them. and of course, they all have very different opinions but because of the general consensus seems to be P. </p>

<p>i’ve never had to make such a difficult decision before. im a mess!</p>

<p>spontaneity-- so sorry i didnt tell you before -0- even though i made a mental note of it. ahha im a she. i wouldve saved you the time of having to type “he/she” AHHA -0-!!
“What should you do in such a dilemma? I realize the choice is tough. Ivy vs. Berkeley, as they say. Please do not simply choose Princeton because of its brand name. Please do not choose Berkeley because of its name as well. Choose a college that you think you will benefit the most from. College is again, and I will highlight this so much, what you make of it. You can’t go wrong at either Princeton or Berkeley. I understand that saying “no” to any of these schools will be difficult, but the choice you make ultimately depends on you, and you’ll go through the results of your choice, taking advantage of every opportunity you have”
-> thank you for telling me this. and also to other CC-ers. I’ve been bombarded with pro-princeton talks all of today at school and home, and it feels good to hear that someone (even though i dont know you!) is encouraging me to “make my own college”. if i end up going to berkeley, i’d be super happy to meet you :slight_smile: fellow CoC-er! heheh.
I’m really glad there are so many helpful people on CC. I was depressed today after my teacher told me that I was stupid for even “hesitating”. the anti-public school one. ahha hes not a bad guy at all but sometimes hes so confused -0-! i really respect both colleges; maybe a little too much and thats why im having such problems.</p>

44

<p>Don’t base your decision on “oh my I’m going to fail because Berkeley is big, scary, and grading is tough, and teachers won’t get to know me.” </p>

<p>Its not good to predispose yourself to failure. If you do the work, you will do fine. That is what college is about (or so I hear from all my college friends, cuz the people who are scraping C’s just simply dont read or dont go to class). </p>

<p>However, I would say go to Princeton, its a once in a lifetime opportunity, you only live once, just do it, its a great college, name still matters in the REAL world.</p>

45

<p>

</p>

<p>Sure, but nor does that mean that you should tempt fate. Driving a car may never be perfectly safe, but that doesn’t mean that you should be barreling down the highway at 100mph sans seatbelt. Reasonable precautions are always advisable. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Oh, I don’t know about that. Certainly seems as if Princeton seems to have graduated quite a few people who have gone on to achieve notable success, including the current Supreme Court Justice. {Incidentally, it’s been 40 years since anybody from Berkeley has been a Supremo}. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are also notable for both their relaxed grading policies and unusually successful alumni.</p>

<p>Look, to be clear, I like Berkeley. I respect Berkeley. It has numerous laudable qualities. Against all but perhaps 1% of all the schools out there, I would hesitate not in the slightest to recommend Berkeley. But Princeton, alas, is a member of that 1%.</p>

46

<p>To the OP, I’m also an incoming freshman to the CoC majoring in the infamous, “harsh” major that sakky speaks of.
I cannot stress enough the importance of choosing a college in which you think you can thrive and belong. Do not base your college choice on the brand name. Simply put, what really matters is what you do there - the research, internships, etc. Spontaneity put it beautifully: College is what you make of it. A good student like you should be able to thrive anywhere. Both schools are good choices, so you’re really in a win-win situation! </p>

<p>That being said, good luck with your choice! If you do choose to go to Cal, we could get to know each other :).</p>

47

<p>I only skimmed the last few pages, but how come the phrase “eating club” hasn’t come up? That is perhaps the most salient feature of social life at Pton, and one that rubbed me in the wrong way. Also, eating clubs are an UG-only experience, so if you did want to partake in them, going to grad school in Princeton wouldn’t really help.</p>

<p>Pton def offers more opps to meet your profs. I believe every senior is required to do a thesis and gets good 1-on-1 time with profs from this. OTOH, the profs have time for this because they tend to have very few grad students compared to other schools. In fact, Pton is unique among the top private research schools for having fewer grad students than undergrads. I would claim, however, that the fewer grad students means that Pton tends to have weaker research than Cal.</p>

<p>“- i love asians… Princeton doesnt really beat berkeley on this. but i get along with everyone so dont get me wrong im just… so culturally asian. HAHA it’d be nice to have people to talk about korean dramas with.”
This is something I felt lacking at Pton (see my comment re the eating clubs above). Since you might not have time to visit, it’s worth reading articles describing the eating clubs and the alternative arrangements students have (the Asian food selection right outside Berkeley at prices reasonable for students is amazing though, and there’s no way Pton can touch it).</p>

48

<p>vyeh- :D!! if i go to cal i would be so happy to get to know you. IVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND A FELLOW COC-ER FOR SOOO LONGGG. I bet we can own CoC together.</p>

<p>webhappy- im so glad you reminded me… someone told me about eating clubs today. they told me that was the big thing at princeton, and that’s where i will meet the diverse people-- the stuck ups, the asians, etc. is it like… literally an eating club? like O_O … a cooking club? i also heard its kind of like a frat/sorority but i was hecka confused about it. wikipedia’s explanation of “eating clubs at princeton” confused me even more cause it seems to be like a mixture of cooking club + buildings</p>

49

<p>You should definitely learn more about the eating clubs if you can. They replace the function of frat/sororities at a usual school, so they play a big role in the social lives of a large fraction of the undergrads. You do eat your meals in there, but they also host events/parties. “Diverse” is the opposite of the impression I got of the clubs. They definitely don’t cook, at least not regularly. In fact, their meal plans are quite expensive. I think there was a push a few years ago for fin aid to cover the dues at the eating clubs, to reduce the aura of exclusivity. </p>

<p>You should post in the Pton forums since I might be out of date now (I read a bunch of threads regarding eating clubs on the forums here many years ago).</p>

50

<p>“I’m really glad there are so many helpful people on CC. I was depressed today after my teacher told me that I was stupid for even “hesitating”. the anti-public school one. ahha hes not a bad guy at all but sometimes hes so confused -0-! i really respect both colleges; maybe a little too much and thats why im having such problems.”</p>

<p>Don’t ever, ever, let those types of comments affect you. I think I understand what you’re going through because many of my peers and some teachers look at me funny when I tell them I’m going to Cal instead of some schools outside of CA. However, I believe I’m making the right choice because I know what kind of student I am. If there’s some opportunity for the taking, I’ll take it. Does going to Cal mean the end of the world if you give up Princeton? Most certainly not, but the problem is that the majority of students nationally have the presumption that “Ivy beats all.” Yes, there ARE amazing programs at Ivy League institutions, but does that mean Cal does not have anything to offer? Definitely not. Cal’s chemistry department does offer research, in fact, you can research at any institution you would like to, Princeton or Cal. I know teachers at my school who chose schools like Rice over Stanford (money, again, was not an issue), and they’ve had the best experiences in their lives. Friends who have chosen UCs over Ivies are now making it in the real world. But likewise, I know peers who have gone to Ivy Leagues and have had the best experiences they’ve ever had as well. </p>

<p>Sorry, I seem to be bouncing back and forth with advice, which probably isn’t answering your question at the moment. But all and all, if you choose Cal, you’ll have an amazing time. If you choose Princeton, you’ll have an amazing experience. Does one school offer more resources over the other? Not necessarily. Do public schools fall below Ivy Leagues in terms of education? I think it all depends on the student :)</p>

<p>“That doesn’t mean that going to Berkeley would be a bad choice. Yes, it might be harder @ Cal because grading is rigorous and it may not offer such assurance, but don’t we live in a life that doesn’t offer assurance?”</p>

<p>"Sure, but nor does that mean that you should tempt fate. Driving a car may never be perfectly safe, but that doesn’t mean that you should be barreling down the highway at 100mph sans seatbelt. Reasonable precautions are always advisable. "</p>

<p>Fate doesn’t exist in our world (sorry, existentialism for the win!). </p>

<p>Going to Princeton does offer assurance, but does that mean Berkeley does not offer the same? In your opinion, what would you say to a person that chooses Berkeley or UCLA over an Ivy League school? (and money is not an issue).</p>

<p>Just to clarify some things, it seems my post have been very leaning towards Cal and other schools. However, I do have great respect for the Ivy League institutions because I know they do offer great programs. Ultimately, and I’m going to say this until people flame me for repeating myself so many times, college is what you make of it. Your college experience at any institution is entirely up to you, and that’s the beauty of being able to choose, libert</p>

51

<p>I have a lot of problems with this thread.</p>

<p>1 – I would not put too much emphasis on Berkeley Chemistry being “#1” in the world as one of the defining reasons to study in the CoC. Academics don’t really put the department on some sort of pedestal like people in this thread are implicating. It’s merely a very strong department for research in chemistry. Furthermore, that ~14-15 year old NRC ranking that the department likes to quote is mainly based on the department’s research.</p>

<p>2 – Like others have said in this thread, the fact that Berkeley is good at chemical research does not necessarily translate into a great undergraduate education. It’s my opinion that a school like Berkeley values quality of research over quality of undergraduate education. Sure, they offer some great research opportunities, but I’d argue that you can find comparable undergraduate research opportunities at Princeton as well. Even if there is a difference, you will likely not be able to tell any disparities in the quality at this stage in your academic career.</p>

<p>3 – I would not put too much emphasis on the “Princeton for undergrad – Berkeley for grad!” idea. What guarantee do you have that you’ll get into Berkeley graduate school? This isn’t undergraduate admissions; Berkeley graduate school is generally exponentially more difficult to get into than Berkeley undergraduate school, and it can be arguably more difficult than getting in any undergraduate institution. For the CoC in particular, the Department of Chemistry brings in around or less than a 100 kids each year. Let me repeat that: less than 100. You’ll need more than a Princeton degree to get in. Success in undergraduate is much different than success in high school – it’s just a very different playing field.</p>

<p>4 – Transferring shouldn’t be on your list of “options”.</p>

<p>5 – If you are conservative, you should definitely consider the “tail-end risk” as mentioned by sakky. You have no guarantee that you will succeed in undergraduate.</p>

<p>What am I saying? – You don’t have an easy decision. You should make the decision based on your objective goals (future career) and based on your overall experience/happiness at each school (how you feel about the environment). </p>

<p>

I think there is something to be said about your specific examples. Because a public school has fewer resources to allocate to its undergraduates, you are likely to hear more uninspiring stories than success stories. This becomes a confidence issue for the OP. If you are confident that you will succeed no matter what environment you’re in (Berkeley is hardly a poor undergraduate environment), Berkeley has a tremendous upside. If you are more conservative, Princeton has the resources to give you a backup plan. However, I highly doubt that a proactive student will be inhibited at UCB.</p>

<p>

This is an entirely over-generalized statement. People get into Princeton for different reasons. Some get into Princeton because they have a lot of talent in math and science, and some get in for other reasons that have nothing to do with their abilities in math or science such as personality, EC’s, skills in other areas, etc. My personal experiences have shown that there are plenty of people that get into selective universities that were never meant to do well in college.</p>

<p>

Looking at the requirements for CEng and Chem, the main differences are in the advanced courses. Chem can be easier and it can be more difficult. It’s my experience that physical chem, theoretical chem, and some inorganic chem are more difficult than chemical engineering, which is basically applied physical chemistry (engineering generally implies “applied science”).</p>

52

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Because capping the number of A’s allowed, Princeton may be deflating grades. If more would otherwise get an A, then it is indeed grade deflation. Of course, it could be inflation in some cases.</p>

53

<p>haha, this thread, if anything else… it made it harder for me to decide -0-.</p>

<p>After reading some of these posts I keep finding out facts about both colleges I didn’t know before. “This isn’t undergraduate admissions; Berkeley graduate school is generally exponentially more difficult to get into than Berkeley undergraduate school, and it can be arguably more difficult than getting in any undergraduate institution. For the CoC in particular, the Department of Chemistry brings in around or less than a 100 kids each year. Let me repeat that: less than 100.” I did not know that, thank you. I should do some grad school research too apparently.</p>

<p>I realize how great both the schools are and if I were in a dream I would just take on both -__-. but fantasizing aside, I think for me… it will come all come down to gut feeling. No one yet denied that Princeton was an amazing school and that CoC was a fantastic program, and I know for myself that there are aspects of both schools that I like (and of course, dislike). I dont see myself making the wrong decision either way, and so… I wont try to force myself to choose. I hope it’ll come to me in a while.</p>

<p>But since I’m considering to “go by my gut feeling”, I gotta be fair and visit Princeton :slight_smile: after all, it was only AFTER i visited Berkeley that I fell in love with it. I originally wanted to go to UCLA. I’m just going to take a jab and miss some school days (even though I really probably shouldnt cause im missing two more days for CalSo) and visit Princeton this week. I realize from this thread, there is no other way I can form a legit opinion of Princeton otherwise.</p>

<p>Thank you VERYVERY much everyone, and (if you would like to know), I would like to tell you guys what I thought about Princeton after I visit. Thanks again.</p>

54

<p>

</p>

<p>I cannot agree more. I’m sorry people – if you got into Harvard, got into Berkeley with a Regents’ Scholarship, you’re an intelligent individual, but that doesn’t mean you won’t struggle like bloody hell in college classes. A lot of tough college majors give you the real deal, and you have to be good at the major, not a valedictorian of a high school class with brilliant EC’s to succeed there. Top schools do * NOT * in general admit students based on their abilities to perform well in a college major, and in fact, usually admit independent of college major. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I will concur, and add in fact that you’re competing with international students who may be machines at the given field you’re talking about. Just because you got into Princeton doesn’t mean you’ll be good enough at chemistry to compete with them. OK, I technically don’t know how many international students go to Chem grad school at UCB, but I know in the math department there are plenty of talented internationals. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>To get the most out of Berkeley, you should ask around about its program and be really well-informed. Nobody in Berkeley will coddle you and in general professors are here to research, not teach, but if you look for them, there are several professors who take their role as educators very seriously. You should take a look at the programs and look at how they are structured.</p>

<p>This is definitely a personal decision. UCB and Princeton are world class universities, and the proper attitude to enter either is that you’ll feel meek and inexperienced in the face of all the brilliant work going on at either, and you should aim for the undergraduate atmosphere that will both make you happier and push you to do your best.</p>

55

<p>

</p>

<p>Also, try to peruse the department websites – take a look at the kinds of requirements you’ll have. A large portion of college is spent studying, so you might as well have a good idea what kind of studying it is.</p>

<p>If you choose the undergraduate school that is right for you, then I think you CAN make it to wonderful graduate programs if you would like to do that. Just keep in mind always that, as SDTB said, it is a different game.</p>

56

<p>I’d just like to note that actually Princeton and Berkeley have approximately the same GPA (3.28 vs. 3.27), but there is a possibility in the future that Princeton’s average GPA will drop even more. Here are more details on Princeton’s grading policy: [U</a>. walks lonely road with grading policy - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/04/27/23543/]U”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/04/27/23543/).</p>

<p>Oh and for fun for everyone who likes discussing grading policies, gradeinflation/deflation, and other grading trends at various univerisites: [National</a> Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/]National”>http://www.gradeinflation.com/). Enjoy!</p>

57

<p>… grade deflation is beginning to scare me a bit. haha</p>

<p>btw… i think i just want to make clear for no specific reason at all except that maybe someone will be interested in knowing;</p>

<p>im not one of those uber smart people -0-. my COMBINED SAT does not reach 2300 and my unweighted gpa is not 4.0. I do not play any sports, the only long term extra curricular I did was playing the viola and a couple state orchestras. I did not do any research, did not win any competitions or awards, and took only one college course throughout all 4 years of high school. I am asian american (korean, to be specific), female, immigrant since 3rd grade. Financial status is slightly above average but nothing different from many other CC-ers, and I did not have any leadership activities other than some clubs to write on my application. </p>

<p>so… what got me into both of these? i honestly have no idea. i think my less-than-stellar academic record is what put me on the waitlist, but something must have kept me from being rejected, right :)?
my counselor/teachers/friends say that the recommendation letters and essays did me wonders. apparently, when my friends read my essays, it reminded them of me, but also showed them something else about me that didnt really “grow” yet. im not sure how to explain… But even my essay topic was nothing special. it was about an experience I had when I visited China for a music tour i was doing. </p>

<p>this might be why im having SOME insecurity issues about going to princeton. I should be confident. nevermind scratch that i AM confident, but I’m slightly worried. that is what i mean to say. but i hope that my slightly average stats will give some confidence/hope to anyone else else who feels like they “dont have a chance” cause they didnt do the crapload of research/leadership/competition/sports/etc that many other ivy-admits did.</p>

<p>on a side note; at first i didnt really have an opinion of princeton cause I didn’t exactly think I would get in, so i didnt visit it. but the more I research on it and hear about it, the more familiar I get with princeton :slight_smile: maybe after i visit, I’ll be just as comfortable with the idea of going there as I am with the idea of going to berkeley, and THEN i will finally be able to make my decision -0-!!!</p>

<p>edit-- if anyone is curious about my stats, i remember i put up a “chance me please” on the columbia/cornell thread. i think it should be more specific in any case</p>

58

<p>

</p>

<p>Berkeley does not offer the same assurance, and neither does UCLA. Choosing one of those schools over an Ivy (except perhaps Cornell) does indeed mean tempting fate. Again, not every college student does well. What if you’re one of them? In the case of Princeton, you will still graduate. True, you’ll graduate with mediocre grades, but you’ll still graduate. Performing poorly at Berkeley may well mean flunking out entirely. This is especially true if you’re in the CoC for performing poorly will mean mean that the other colleges at Berkeley such as L&S won’t want to take you. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The most salient aspect of grade inflation/deflation is not what happens at the top of the grade curve, but rather what happens at the bottom, or put more technically, what matters is not the average GPA, but rather the skew. After all, the difference between an A and a B average is relatively minor in the grand scheme, basically meaning the difference between going to grad school or winning a top scholarship like the Rhodes. Such honors are obviously highly coveted, but either way, you’re still going to graduate. You’re going to get a degree.Compare that to the difference between a C and a D average - which is the cutoff threshold beyond which you won’t even graduate at all. </p>

<p>The fact is, it’s practically impossible to get anything below a C at Princeton. Those who disbelieve are invited to ask around the Princeton section of CC and inquire for themselves. With the possible exception of academic misconduct, nobody ever flunks out of Princeton. You might voluntarily drop out , but if you want the degree, you will get it. You can’t say the same for Berkeley. People can and do flunk out. </p>

<p>Like I said, not everybody will do well in college. I understand that this notion is difficult to fathom for most people here, as anybody who is good enough to have won admission to Berkeley or Princeton has obviously done well in school. But that’s not guaranteed to continue. At any school, somebody has to be in last place. Yet at Princeton, that last-place guy is still going to graduate. Not so at Berkeley.</p>

59

<p>Well Sakky, as usual I’ll advise the OP to educate herself well on the CoC now itself. There’s a chance anyone can flunk out, but I think if well-informed, one can at least maintain the grades to transfer out. I can and have transferred from the COE to L&S for my math major, and because I wanted it to go through quickly, I actually emailed the L&S people to hurry it up, and they responded they would and did, actually. One basically must be calculating, and not overconfident. </p>

<p>It doesn’t sound this OP is overconfident, which gives me confident she’ll do OK at either school. Nevertheless, your precautionary words are good to keep in mind.</p>

60

<p>What is the 6-year graduation rate for Berkeley, UCLA and Princeton?</p>