<p>I really like UCLA and Cal, and want to apply to both, but many people have been saying that there really is no point in applying to a UC out of state, as the schools are not worth it.</p>
<p>What do you guys think?</p>
<p>It really depends on if YOU think they're worth the price. Personally, I think that both are still a steal compared to equal or lesser private schools, but some don't.</p>
<p>They are close to the same price as high end privates (don't count on graduating in 4 years) for oos students. If you can get into UCB or UCLA oos, you can also get into some of the very top privates in the Country. </p>
<p>To me, it would be hard to justify the huge classes and inability to get classes you want unless I was going for a rare major (film at LA) or one where they are at the very top (engineering at Cal).</p>
<p>So basically, if I want to something like political science or philosophy, it's better to go to a school like Vanderbilt or Rice than Cal?</p>
<p>to say you really like those schools is not enough to decide anything. The first thing to do is step back and decide WHY you like those schools. How did you arrive at that decision? If you have a set of criteria, a pretty good list of what you want in a college, then perhaps these are a good choice for you if they're the ones that meet your wants the best. But if its a somewhat random decision you might want to reconsider. Perhaps you can find schools that deliver more at the same or lower cost, or that have better odds of admission.</p>
<p>So basically, if I want to something like political science or philosophy, it's better to go to a school like Vanderbilt or Rice than Cal?>></p>
<p>My personal opinion - and it will probably get me flamed - is: yes.
I think zagat said it perfectly: for what you will pay as an out of state student, the UC's are not worth it for oss undergrad (for grad school, well, that's a different ball game), especially if you have the stats to get into schools like Rice and Vanderbilt. But, that's just my opinion. I would suggest, however, that you do a careful comparison between UCB/UCLA and other schools like Rice & Vanderbilt (what the heck, throw in U of Virginia and U of Michigan as well), looking at:</p>
<p>(1) average class sizes
(2) average 4 year graduation rates
(3) average cost after financial aid and merit money is factored in (and the financial aid offered to out of state UC students is mainly comprised of loans). Make sure you include the yearly increases that the UC regents favor for out of state students.
(4) average stats of accepted students</p>
<p>If you can justify paying out of state rates after making these comparisons, then go for it.</p>
<p>thanks. i'll definitely have to think about it.</p>
<p>now, is there any way for me to establish residence after my first year at said UC school(s) and then thereafter pay in-state costs (by going through processes such as financial emancipation and off-campus residency)?</p>
<p>carolyn:</p>
<p>no flame here....both schools are OUTstanding for in-state, but at OOS prices, the privates mentioned would likely have a more personal undergrad experience. But, if the poster wants big time sports and all that goes with that type of undergrad experience, then definitely consider Mich, UVa, and UNC, as well as some big time privates such as Duke. A relative good deal for OOS is Wisconsin -- ~$30k all in.</p>
<p>Cal's poli sci dept is ranked highly btw, and some first year classes can be surprisingly small, with 15 kids and a prof. Somewhat rare, yes, but they do exist.</p>
<p>Zagat: methinks the 4 year grad argument is not relevant, unless you have to work FT/PT to pay the bills. Many students do graduate in 4 years if they WANT to (meaning will take an 8:00 class once in awhile). I was at a UC meeting last month where one kid graduated in 2.5 yrs (I didn't ask), and the other 3.5 (ap's and a summer program). With the high low income acceptance rate at the UC's, many students NEED to work, and thus, class scheduling can be a big problem for those kids.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>now, is there any way for me to establish residence after my first year at said UC school(s) and then thereafter pay in-state costs (by going through processes such as financial emancipation and off-campus residency)?<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>It's very difficult, and as long as your parents are claiming you on their tax returns, the answer will be no. The UCs are on to most schemes for avoiding OOS tuition.</p>
<p>I know Carolyn is not a fan of the UC system, but that doesn't mean that they're not great schools that are still less expensive than Rice or Vandy. OOS tuition to Cal is $16, 956. at Rice tuition is $23,000. And at Vandy tuition is a staggering $30,920. Who knows, maybe you'd get more fin aid at the privates, but maybe not.</p>
<p>GentlemanandScholar,
You're making a common mistake and only looking at the "non resident tuition" fee (which incidentally will be $17,820 this year). On top of that fee, Non-residents also have to pay the same fees as in-state residents, over $7,000 this year. </p>
<p>This year, the cost of just attending (not including room, board, books, etc.) a UC as an out of state student will be $24,550 a year - actually $1,000 MORE than Rice. Add in living expenses, books and travel, and the UC's tell out of state students to expect to pay $39,000 a year. I have talked to enough out of state students at the UC's to know that many end up spending more than that by the time they factor in travel and entertainment expenses. </p>
<p>In-state students, by the way, will pay $22,150 this year, including room and board. </p>
<p>You can double check this at: <a href="http://www.ucop.edu/pathways%5B/url%5D">www.ucop.edu/pathways</a> or go to UCB's own cost page:
<a href="http://students.berkeley.edu/fao/ugbudget04-05.html%5B/url%5D">http://students.berkeley.edu/fao/ugbudget04-05.html</a></p>
<p>It is not that I am "not a fan of the UC system." Quite the opposite - I think it is a great value for in-state students. But, for out of state students, especially those who need financial aid, the UC's are simply not a good value. Financial aid for out of state students at the UC's is made up primarily of loans, not grants. At a comparably priced private school like Vanderbilt or Rice, your need-based financial aid package is much more likely to include grants, not to mention merit money. I have even seen in-state students pay less at a private school than they would at a UC, after the financial aid packages are compared.</p>
<p>RC, Coureur is correct. Establishing residency after you've enrolled in a UC is nearly impossible to do. You must be financially independent, which means your parents must not have claimed you on their taxes as a dependent for TWO years and you have to prove you have sufficient income to pay for living and school expenses on your own. You also must prove that you have lived in Calif. for a year before starting school. Even something like going home for the summer can screw up residency. Here's the details:</p>
<p>Wow. I didn't realize how complicated it was.</p>
<p>And I really like Cal a lot, I would definitely consider it one of my upper choices, it's just I'm from New York, and the cost of school + flights, et al would be freakin' ridiculous without any merit/finaid.</p>
<p>:( this is gonna be a hard one to take off the list...</p>
<p>don't take it off the list...I moved from California to New York for college and it was the best thing I ever did...my dad moved from New York to California for college (UC berkeley) and never left...I think people underestimate how great and eye-opening it can be to pack up and move completely across country...moving to Ithaca from the Bay Area was total culture shock, but I grew to love it. Living in the bay-area and going to the flag-ship UC school is quintessential california. If you're from the city (NYC) then I imagine you're already a pretty dynamic individual--a "go-getter". These are exactly the type of folks who excel and love a vibrant university and cultural atmosphere like Berkeley and the bay-area...</p>
<p>just my 2 cents...
CUgrad</p>
<p>"I have even seen in-state students pay less at a private school than they would at a UC, after the financial aid packages are compared."</p>
<p>This is true and was the case for myself in comparing financial aid packages from privates vs. the UC's (I'm a CA resident). Unfortunately, in comparing in-state publics to privates, many do not know of this and autmatically assume a private will come with a 40k price tag and dsmiss the idea of applying. Random rant.</p>
<p>Anyways, you're merely wondering whether or not to apply to Berkeley and UCLA. While I realize the UC app is quite in-depth, as long as the app fee isn't much of an issue, I say go for it. If you like Berkeley and UCLA, then you should apply. Assuming the results are positive, THEN it becomes time to stress about which school to attend. My advice would be to consider the financial aid differences between the two UC's and other privates (which according to Carolyn will likely be substantial) and weigh that against your preference and like of the schools (the UC's).</p>
<p>Carolyn, do you have any data showing that Cal's fin aid to oos students is made up of more loans than grants?</p>
<p>GentlemanandScholar, I'm just surmising here... even if Carolyn doesn't, it's no secret that the UC's are being forced to penny pinch and it seems doubtful they would extend grants towards a largely untargeted group of admits. From knowing about the fin aid packages of many friends at UC's, they're even stingy with grants for in-state students unless it's meritorious.</p>
<p>The UC's penny pinching is so, so overblown. I can only speak for Cal, but I haven't noticed a thing. I'm not trying to say that there's no way that oos are getting less money, but I'm honestly just curious if that's really true or if its another overblown assumption.</p>
<p>I would disagree. My best friend at UCLA - who loves the academic aspect of the school but despises the bureaucracy - tells me how students get memos detailing which buildings won't have electricity in all of their rooms on alternating Sundays to cut down on power expenses. Another friend there also told me how all of her professors for fall quarter made their students print out class syllabi instead of passing them out to, again, reduce costs. Yes, what I've heard is second-hand, but its not like these people have an anti-UCLA agenda or anything.</p>
<p>And how can you say you haven't noticed a thing? Is it just your parents who see your tuition bill? That's where the most obvious change is.</p>
<p>Well, for one, my tuition is covered with grants (pell, cal) and scholarships, so my parents are happy that I chose Cal over a few more expensive options. Yes, tuition has skyrocketed a bit but my fin aid has kept up with it rather well. As far as paper shortages and whatnot, none of those things have happened to me. Again, I can't speak for UCLA, but I honestly haven't noticed any monetary shortfalls.</p>