UC Quits National Merit Program

Parents Forum
81

<p>Newmassdad, isn't your point that the PSAT should not be used for deciding the outcome of scholarships? If it is, that is essentially what the UC has decided. However, because they seem to reach such conclusion after years and years of endorsing a program that has not changed much, they have to come up with a bunch of non-sense reeking of the usuall and blatant hypocrisy of the UC system.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>They did not withdraw their support for the PSAT. In his letter to the College Board, Patrick Hayashi stated this clearly. They wanted TCB to stop endorsing the NMS program. </p></li>
<li><p>They pretend that the NMS discriminate aganst minorities -except American Asians. However, their own Regent Scholarships present a WORSE representation of Blacks and Hispanics. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>As far as I am concerned, the UC is motivated by two elements: </p>

<p>a. the enjoyment of the publicity that arises from embarassing the College Board
b. reducing their own expenses by ELIMINATING a scholarship and NOT replacing it. </p>

<p>As far as debating the value of the PSAT, I agree that the PSAT is a poor bastard child of the PSAT. I have posted often about its lack of integrity. I would also disagree that with the notion that is a good predictor for the SAT scores. The reason is that the PSAT is presented in many different ways throughout the US resulting in abysmal level of preparation at most high schools. It is a given that a small percentage of test takers KNOW about the value that is hidden behind the small awards. </p>

<p>However, this should not provide another excuse to attack the SAT. Yes, it is not perfect but that is the best we have! What options do we have?
a. Relying on GPA solely is ENTIRELY impossible considering the difference in quality of high schools and the massive manipulation of grades by lesser schools. To be able to use GPA, we would need a comparative scaling for every high school in the country.<br>
b. Relying on SAT Subject Tests or AP would create an even bigger chasm between rich and poor schools.<br>
c. Creating a new test? That is what the ACT attempted to do? At this time, the tests are almost interchangeable, but the ACT is surely NOT a better alternative.</p>

<p>As far as the schools that have advocating the elimination of SAT or made the test optional, one needs to realize that their recruiting "bandwidth" is extremely large for selective schools and tend to be on the lower end of SAT requirements. It is easier to compare a student with a 1800 SAT with a student who did not supply his scores. So, the fact that a school such as Mount Holyoke or Lafayette makes the SAT optional is absolutely trivial and irrelevant to the admission process for the students who score at 2100 and above, and to the schools that need to differentiate candidates in the 2100-2400 range. </p>

<p>To go back to the main discussion, no matter how we look at it, the distribution and selection process of scholarships will never be entirely fair. It is a given that most scholarships have floors that use GPA or test scores. In many cases, the most selective high schools punish their students with lower GPA that eliminate them from many scholarships. In fact, this is a MUCH bigger issue than the PSAT or SAT requirements.</p>

<p>PS It should also be worth remembering that the infamous UC report was ordered to CONFIRM a decision that had been made by Atkinson. It is also worth remembering that TCB did have research based on a MUCH larger scale that provided ample rebuttal to the conclusions of the UC . The UC report was not challenged by TCB when they realized that the UC was handling them a much greater slice of the pie without a fight. The UC and Atkinson can crow all they want, they were outfoxed by The College Board ... and the entire country is paying for it. We have a test that is a lot worse than before and it costs a lot more. And the UC is still trying to find excuses for its glaring ineptitude to build a freshman class that presents a mere semblance of their state population.</p>

82

<p>bluebayou: I have to be honest,...the early prep you describe is exactly what I had both my kids do...August before jr. year, followed by Oct. SAT and PSAT's. It paid off in each case...both in terms of NMSQT and being done with SAT I's. But almost no one around here does that, so I based my premise on the assumption that prep courses usually don't preceed PSAT's</p>

83

<p>Marite: but if the schools don't tie the recruiting to scholarship money, then they may not be so successful in getting kids to apply.</p>

84

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/x10969.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/x10969.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Looks like the SAT can be dropped easily with very little problems. </p>

<p>I would love to see it dropped so kids can concentrate on high school instead of one test after another.</p>

85

<p>Ah, I was thinking more in terms of the mailings. Since S took the PSAT in sophomore year, he was spared from the avalanche. But some colleges noticed his AP scores and sent him stuff. UT-Dallas was particularly persistent.</p>

86

<p>Yes, but for NM Finalists, those mailings include offers of huge amounts of money...well into January/Feb of senior year.</p>

87

<p>Dstark, here is a quick test:</p>

<p>Build a list of potential colleges for a typical CC member that is entirely SAT optional, and excludes automatic admissions as in Texas and Florida. </p>

<p>PS By the way, 51% of applicants submit tests scores to Bates.</p>

88

<p>Your idea has nothing to do with whether we need the SAT. We don't. People will stand out without it. You may even get a more interesting class. Instead of spending hours prepping for a test, you can spend those hours actually accomplishing something. </p>

<p>I see many people studying and studying for this test this summer. Why? Just so they can get into a college. It's ridiculous. The summer should be a time to explore.</p>

<p>I wish the UCs would go all the way and stop accepting the test.</p>

89

<p>DS, People do a lot more than study for the SAT to get into a college: most spend 15 or 16 years in school, dedicate themselves to sports or art, pursue a slew of EC, spend a fortune taking AP exams, etc. </p>

<p>Yes, having to prepare for a 4 hour test dwarfs all the above :) </p>

<p>By the way, I do agree that the summer should be reserved for exploration and RR.</p>

90

<p>I didn't say a 4 hour test dwarfs what is above. I'm saying take the above and you don't need the test.</p>

91

<p>I agree with all 3 of your posts above, dstark. And that's despite my own being a NM finalist. I don't like PSAT's or SAT's as "predictors" (Not!). I would love for them to just go away. And the colleges must buy into some of this non-predictability, given that they turn away at least as many high-scorers as they accept. And when those high-scorers don't get accepted, they end up confused, disappointed, sometimes bitter over yrs of prep for these tests. So why don't we just save all the money & hassle & marketing.</p>

92

<p>Xiggi, you said "a. Relying on GPA solely is ENTIRELY impossible considering the difference in quality of high schools and the massive manipulation of grades by lesser schools. To be able to use GPA, we would need a comparative scaling for every high school in the country."</p>

<p>I'd like to see you back up that assertion. It appears to me to be pure speculation on your part, and not at all consistent with the practices of many schools. It is also NOT consistent with the research done by, among others, the CB/ETS for the prediction of freshman grades.</p>

<p>In fact, I would argue (speculate?) that the differences in grading practices among schools is no greater than the differences in test preparation among students taking the PSAT or SAT. There are also other tools that adcoms could use to adjust for differences in grading. Indeed, top schools do so already, based on experiental factors. Heck, if I cared, in 2 minutes I could calibrate for any town in the country, just using census data. </p>

<p>It is interesting to think about where the cult of testing went askew. Personally, I think the problems arose from taking a tool that was calibrated against upper middle class east coast prep school kids, for whom it probably was a great predictor, and using that tool with kids from a much more diverse SES and cultural mileau.</p>

<p>Isn't the ed establishment great?</p>

93

<p>Massdad wrote "In fact, I would argue (speculate?) that the differences in grading practices among schools is no greater than the differences in test preparation among students taking the PSAT or SAT."</p>

<p>Massdad, feel free to categorize my assertion that rampant grade inflation and ... manipulation exist as wild speculation. While I can point to the national statistics of the inflation of GPA or point to specific examples, I do not think that is necessary. I am sure that you have seen the statistics. Feel free to further believe that schools that give a 25% grade boosts -or more- for AP classes are not engaging in grade manipulation. Feel free to believe that schools that invent all kind of gimmicks such as waiving finals for students with perfect attendance are not manipulating with a vengeance. Feel free to believe that all grades in the country are pretty similar, and I will continue to see schools that offer 25 AP, have 3.5 GPA averages, and cannot crack the 1000 on the SAT. </p>

<p>Now, when it comes to the PSAT and SAT, ALL a student needs is the desire to study and have access to a couple of books. Since you like to point to statistics, what are the numbers published by TCB/ETS on the impact of coaching? The results are probably biased, but you are prepared to use other statistics of the same outfit, aren't you? </p>

<p>The reality is that every student can reach his or her maximum potential score on the SAT with nothing more than a bit of effort. If a pricey tutoring service can boost a score, so can a student by himself. Have you ever noticed how high the SAT scores are among the international applicants? </p>

<p>Now, that does not mean that everyone is capable to score a perfect 2400. There are simply too many differences in background. As as said many times, the SAT is not causing the problems of inequities in K-12, they are simply a measuring device. One thing that you cannot take away from the SAT is that it is, by far, the best equalizer we have. Without the SAT, many students who attend schools below the radar screen of selective schools would NEVER have the chance to compete. </p>

<p>As far as current studies of predictors, it is obvious that grades should show some correlation among the students who were admitted. One reason is that the admission was based on several elements, including SAT scores and ranking. However, how do you compare a perfect grade from Boston Latin with a perfect grade from Bubba High in Central Texas? I'm sure you know the answer.</p>

94

<p>I didn't read the entire thread, but from a pro-social equality and anti-elitist point of view...</p>

<p>If you went to professors in Graduate Schools of Education and asked them about this issue, I'm sure the vast majority of them would applaud it. The fact is, money had always been given to the need-based students until US News started its rankings. To attract more top students to boost its rankings, some colleges started giving more merit-based scholarships... usually at the expense of need-based scholarships (for the many colleges that aren't well endowed). I'm glad the UC system is recognizing the importance of need-based scholarships to those who really need it and may not be able to attend college without it and that they are not indulging themselves on merit-based recruitment. </p>

<p>There's nothing wrong with merit-based scholarships, in fact, they are a good thing. But it shouldn't come at the expense of need-based scholarships nor should merit-based scholarships be based on criteria that is clearly flawed (but accepted). </p>

<p>One last comment... I'm not sure if this happens everywhere, but I live in a community that is heavily populated by Asians, and their parents send their kids to SAT prep schools while they're still in middle school. Clearly, the rich have the advantage, and if National Merit is rewarded for these "early bloomers," then the gap between the rich and poor continues to grow as the poor, who can't afford the test prep, in general won't do as well or may not necessarily reach their potential (of course, there are exceptions and going to test prep doesn't always correlate with higher scores, but usually you'll get a score boost). </p>

<p>Quote from LA Times article:
"UCLA Chancellor Albert Carnesale said some UC chancellors initially might have harbored concerns that, if they scrapped the National Merit program, they would lose out on talented students and be punished in the rankings published by such magazines as U.S. News & World Report. He called the decision "another move in the direction of doing what you think makes the most sense rather than be concerned about what it will mean for the rankings.""</p>

95

<p>All of the students at my kids' highly-competitive high school who thought they might have a shot at NM took PSAT prep courses to raise their scores. Some start in 9th grade in order to prepare for the test in 10th grade, then they prep again for the junior year test. This is all a big waste of time and money as far as I'm concerned.</p>

<p>It is ridiculous for kids to be prepping for what was supposed to be a practice test for yet another test. It's a waste of valuable time and money and, once again, leaves economically disadvantaged kids behind.</p>

96

<p>Xiggi, the SAT is flawed. It measures income of the parents better than anything else. It measures one kind of intelligence... The ability to take a test. That's it.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/11/07_sat2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/11/07_sat2.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://inverse.physics.berkeley.edu/archives/001349.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://inverse.physics.berkeley.edu/archives/001349.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I was just talking about this issue with a professor of Education who received her PHD from Stanford. She agrees with kfc4u, and 1down2togo.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.fairtest.org/univ/univproblems.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.fairtest.org/univ/univproblems.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.fairtest.org/facts/myths.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.fairtest.org/facts/myths.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

97

<p>Dstark, I love to debate this issue further, but we could go for months and reach no consensus. You could find twenty studies and I could find twenty that debunk whatever your "experts" come up. At the end, we would be none the wiser.</p>

<p>We all know that statisticians can defend opposing views with the same data, as long as they can manipulate the presentation. </p>

<p>What if I were to agree that there is a correlation between income and SAT scores. Is it really such a revelation that richer people have access to better things in life, including spending lavishly on their children's education? However, I probably could undermine the entire CAUSALITY by producing another correlation that brings in the level of education of the parents. Now we have three elements and who is to say that it is the LEVEL of education of the parents that influences the SAT scores, and that the income is simply neutral. A perfect example of this are reflected by the scores among the various minorities and especially among the various sub-groups. The Asian population , especially in California is richer than the other minorities but also happens to be the most educated. However, it is far from being homogeneous as American Chinese are not to be compared to Hmongs, Laotians or Cambodians who are poorer and often less educated. </p>

<p>For some reason, I now end up in a camp that seems to defend the SAT. Since I do not work for the College Board, why would I spend my energy doing that. Simply because, the SAT's opponents are simply making noise and have NO solution whatsoever. What has been the contribution of fairtest.org to higher education? Nothing, absolutely nothing! </p>

<p>In the meantime, we have two standardized tests that are far from being perfect, but they are the best we got. So, rather than spend all my energy to fight their use, I rather focus on finding ways to beati them. And, beatable they are, and easily to boot! Poor people can do extremely well on the SAT, given the opportunity. You do not have to look further than CC to uncover many accounts of students with full Pell grants and remarkable SAT scores. The test is not very complicated and it should be a simple rite of passage. One of its biggest problems is that so many people have found a way to ace it and that a quasi perfect score no longer guarantee an acceptance at hyper-selective schools. Hence, mounting and undue criticism has followed. </p>

<p>From my vantage point, there are many problems in education that deserve more attention than the SAT. We should worry more about what causes the poor performance of students -in general- than focusing on the flaws of a particular test. The fact that our high schools are failing our students and not adequately prepare them for college is a far more interesting and burning subject.</p>

<p>PS I addressed the validity and TIMELINESS of the UC study in an earlier post. Accordingly, you may safely assume that I read the study. For what it is worth, I think Atkinson must be a true seer as he could predict the outcome of the study before it was penned. Coincidence?</p>

98

<p>As a parent of a kid who was a National Merit Finalist & received a school sponsored scholarship at his private college, I am 100% in favor of UC's choice. I felt all along that the test was a joke - especially so because my son scored at the cutoff - so basically he was awarded the scholarship on the basis of 1 point on the test. Of course we accepted the money -- for the cost of private tuition, we would take any help we could get. But I certainly never expected him to be given an NM award if he had attended the state university.</p>

<p>For the posters who have argued that more than the PSAT score is required to make finalist status: 90% of all sem-finalists make finalist. The score needs to be "confirmed" with a SAT score, but the cutoff for that is apparently very low, well below the percentile required on the PSAT - and in any case, that is just "confirmation" by a test with the same set of potential flaws. There is a form that must be submitted in September with space for a very short essay. There is going to be some attrition of test scorers due to factors like students moving (and therefore not getting the forms delivered to them in time), graduating early or dropping out. A small percentage probably have academic problems or school disciplinary issues serious enough to knock them out of contention -- and there must be some high school guidance counselors who flub the whole thing and don't get the forms to the student or mail them into NMSC on time. (I mean, the staff at my son's school barely managed to get that part done, even though my son was very prompt in returning the required papers to them.) So I think those types of situation pretty much account for the 10% who don't make it -- I know that my impression when I saw the numbers for my son was basically that if he was breathing and bathed regularly he was going to meet NM's requirements to "advance" to finalist. </p>

<p>Based on grades and test scores, my son also qualifed for institutional scholarships -- 2 UC campuses invited him to apply for merit scholarships - though he only bothered to submit an application for 1. He was awarded a half-tuition scholarship, which was more than what NM would have been in any case. So bottom line: to the extent that the UC's are able to continue to fund merit based scholarship, any NM finalist with strong grades & SATs is going to qualify for consideration. </p>

<p>So I honestly don't think UC should be funding NM -- the very top schools like Harvard don't fund it either. NM basically is a great vehicle for getting strong financial aid from less selective schools -- and that's fine with me. Let Arizona State continue to attract top out-of-state candidates with their offers - it helps their school. </p>

<p>It also would be fine with me if UC dropped all merit aid entirely, in favor of need-based aid only.</p>

99

<p>Interesting side note to calmom's point: my son's school apparently "lost" the packets that were supposed to be given to semi-finalists during the confusion prompted by a buidling renovation and a new principal. Since I remembered from my daughter's experience that we should have gotten the packets very early in the senior year, I finally questioned the g.c. It turned out that the guidance office had forgotten all about it (I won't go on about that issue). So they then contacted the NMS people, and NMS quickly sent out new packets. NMSC also then gave the two semi-finalists an short extension on the deadline to turn the materials in. However, it occurred to me that since the parent of the one other semi-finalist didn't have prior experience with this process, had I not checked into this, neither kid would have had to opportunity to pursue the NMS finalist status.</p>

100

<p>Nice posts, Xiggi (#s 81 and 93).</p>