I’m not sure how you define a substantial minority but in our local HS (large, affluent, highly ranked non-test-in suburban Chicago public) there are a max of 30 of 1,000 kids doing math beyond Calc BC in HS. I am sure IMSA has a higher proportion for example, but see that as an outlier (and not affluent either).
I would consider that a substantial minority; 3% of your high school is regularly going beyond Calc BC. Our affluent, non test-in suburban high school usually has 2-3 class sections of multi-variable each year, 4-5 class sections of Calc BC and 30 or so kids doing DE.
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I’m not sure what math acceleration has to do with standardized testing, the math portion of which doesn’t involve anything beyond pre-calc. Less than a handful of colleges require calculus. Even the few that do really don’t give much, if any, admission boost to students who have taken more advanced math classes. I’m in favor of placing students with similar abilities together in a class for the benefits of these students, but acceleration for the sake of acceleration is unproductive, IMO.
The income question on the UC application is used to determine if an applicant will qualify for an application fee waiver. It does not have to be answered.
My S could not submit until that question was answered. Not seeking any aid.
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According to the UC application guide, the question is optional. I do not have access to the application each year, so I cannot test this information.
The question had no relationship to a fee waiver. It also asked for the specific AGI, not just a band of income or whether the applicant’s parents made over a certain amount.
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I told him not to answer but he couldn’t submit without it.
I am only quoting the UC application guide information stating that you need to fill out the # of family members and income to qualify for the fee waiver. I am only posting the information as listed. Believe or do not believe, that is your choice.
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I think they’re just saying that the guide is not accurate. For what it’s worth, CSU requires parents adjusted gross income from their federal tax return. (See e.g., required info, page 8 https://www.calstate.edu/apply/freshman/Documents/freshman-application-guide-21-22.pdf)
It really does not matter if it is accurate or not. FA decisions will be made based on the FASFA not on what is reported on the UC/CSU application. I know some students do not have accurate income information due to many factors including parents not being forth coming about their finances.
I do not want to side track this discussion any further.
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I can confirm that my daughter was able to submit the application without entering income data. She left it blank.
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From the UC Application Term of Use:
Other information, such as parents’ occupations and family income, are required only if you are applying for the Educational Opportunity Program or an application fee waiver. https://apply.universityofcalifornia.edu/my-application/termsofuse
From the “What You’ll Need” section on the “Apply Now” website:
- Annual income for last year and the current year (your parents’ if you’re a dependent; your income if you’re independent). This is optional unless you’re applying for an application fee waiver or for the Educational Opportunity Program. Apply now | UC Admissions
It seems that some parents are going to read ill-intent into whatever UC does, no matter the actual intent.
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From LA Times Editorial Board today:
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The “UC” that people are critical of is actually administrators who ignored faculty recommendations when deciding to go test blind. I am struggling to see how they are the victims.
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As I believe was clear from the context, I was specifically referring to the unfounded suspicion that the optional “annual income” question was being used to manipulate admission results in favor of the wealthy.
As for the of the tenor the rest of your comment, it has already been addressed. Repeatedly. No use beating a dead horse.
There is no other reason to include this question for those who did not click to request assistance/waivers.
No need to “click to request” anything. Fee waiver status is automatically determined for everyone who submits the information. As explained in the instructions:
You can see if you automatically qualify for a fee waiver within the application. If you enter your family size and income in the “About you” section, you will see if you’ve qualified for an application fee waiver when you select your campuses in the “Campuses & majors” section (a message will appear on that page with real-time feedback about how many campuses you can apply to for free) Apply now | UC Admissions.
So why would UC make waivers available to all those who qualified, whether or not they affirmatively requested such a waiver? It fits with the mission of expanding accessibility to low income applicants.
There are many contributing factors to UC’s decision to go test blind. The decision wasn’t solely related to increasing portion of students from disadvantaged backgrounds, although that no doubt was one of the many contributing factors, as part of continued effort to have the UC student population better reflect both the demographics and distribution of the CA population.
UC’s application having a question asking about AGI does not eliminate the many contributing factors. According to UC’s website, UC’s are need blind (for domestic) and do not use the AGI question for admission purposes. Their website says instead they use the AGI question as follows:
Other information, such as parents’ occupations and family income, are required only if you are applying for the Educational Opportunity Program or an application fee waiver.
Like many highly selective colleges, UC does give a direct small boost to students who are believed to be low income, in spite of officially being “need blind”. One of their admission criteria is:
Academic accomplishments in light of your life experiences and special circumstances, including but not limited to: disabilities, low family income, first generation to attend college, need to work, disadvantaged social or educational environment, difficult personal and family situations or circumstances, refugee status or veteran status.
However, as discussed earlier in the thread, lower income does not necessarily mean the student is academically disadvantaged. Some lower income kids attend high quality HSs with top resources, while some higher income kids attend less resourced high schools. Only giving a direct boost to low income without any further consideration does not necessarily result in matriculation from a wide distribution of HSs. You may still instead primarily be admitting kids from top, best resourced HSs, some of which are low income kids.
Instead UC’s admission criteria includes things like “Quality of your academic performance relative to the educational opportunities available in your high school.” They also appear to give a strong boost to kids who place in the top 9% of their local HS via ELC, which would penalize kids who attend selective, private HSs, where the vast majority of students are gifted, well-resourced, and high achieving.
Stats were noted previously in this thread, showing that these efforts appear to largely be successful for income distribution. Wealthy kids were still dramatically overrerpresented compared to low income kids. However, the more highly selective UCs enrolled a greater portion of low/middle income kids than nearly all similarly selective US colleges.
Some additional stats are below, comparing the distribution of public and private HSs. UCs appear to have a similar admit rate between applicants from public and private HSs, so the distribution of admitted students reflects the portion of applicants from public and private HSs. This is relevant to test optional/blind since test scores can act as a barrier than prevents many students from applying. Going test optional/blind leads to a different distribution in the applicant pool, which is expected to also result in a different distribution of enrolling students.
UC Berkeley In-State Freshman (non-transfer) Admission Stats
1999: Enrolled Kids: 87% Public HS / 13% Private HS, Admit Rate: 30% Public / 28% Private
2009: Enrolled Kids: 87% Public HS / 13% Private HS, Admit Rate: 24% Public / 24% Private
2019: Enrolled Kids: 87% Public HS / 13% Private HS, Admit Rate: 18% Public / 18% Private
Test Optional Implemented
2020: Enrolled Kids: 91% Public HS / 9% Private HS, Admit Rate: 20% Public / 18% Private
Test Blind Implemented
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Given the issues finding SAT and ACT test dates and the cancellations that seem to be common in California, UC (and CSU) probably have no choice but to go SAT/ACT-blind for this year and next. (A court case ruled that they cannot go SAT/ACT-optional.)
So any possible policy change to use the SAT/ACT would only affect the 2023-2024 application year (for entry in fall 2024) at the earliest.
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