UC vs IVY LEAGUE

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
141

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I don't know, but my guess would be that you are baseing this statement on percentages, which hurts a big school like Cal because, as I've said, our bottom 20 percent of students are not as strong as the bottom 20th of our peer schools. That said, I believe that Cal undergrads produce more Phds than any other school in the country, even if they don't send as many kids, percentage wise, to grad school.

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<p>The problem isn't percents. It's the fact that a Cal student with a 3.8 and the same LSAT will, if the career center stats are accurate, get passed over in favor of a top 15 undergrad applicant. Especially when you consider the grade inflation rampant at many of the privates, this is troubling.</p>

142

<p>Besides the one study put out by (and specific to) Berkeley, what is it that shows a 3.8 at Cal isn't the same as a 3.8 from Cornell?</p>

143

<p>It's been shown through admission statistics to medical schools, business schools, law schools, that admitted Berkeley students on average had a higher GPA than admitted (insert top private school with inflation) students. I don't know why this happens and it is indeed troubling.</p>

<p>Those who work at graduate admissions sometimes SAY that they take the difficulty of the school into account (grade deflation, etc.) but I'm not sure how much truth there is to that. College admission officers have often stated that they take rigor of courseload into consideration along with GPA, but I question how much consideration. Someone could take 2 APs and have a 4.0, while another takes 4 APs and get a 3.8. It could have taken much more work for the second kid but most of the time colleges will take the first kid over him.</p>

<p>I suspect the same is happening with graduate and professional schools. Many people have already pointed out that medical schools look at college GPA and MCATs more than anything else, and that the undergraduate school rarely matters. It leads me to believe that Berkeley students are suffering in the graduate school admissions due to its grade deflation, which graduate schools seem to pay little attention to.</p>

<p>Now, this really has little to do with Berkeley's quality of education, except to say that perhaps some top students are drawn to other schools due to this situation which lowers the quality of the student population. Still, it's a troubling issue.</p>

144

<p>I don't think the problem is with grade inflation. The report from UCB's law school, the difficulty of getting an A at Berkeley is lower than that for many of the Ivies.</p>

145

<p>Drankin, do you really think CC is representative of a school in its entirety? Berkeley has most doubles. That's just how it is. It also has som triples. Such is life. Just becuase a handful of people got put in triples does not mean that most Berkeley students get housing they don't like. Different schools have different policies- my friend at Stanford had the freshmen, sort of random year, two years in which she is in the top thousand of a lottery, and a year in which she chooses to be in the bottom end of the lottery. I don't think she's ecstatic about each and every year. I don't think Berkeley is different from other schools in that some students get housing they don't like sometimes.</p>

<p>Aurelius, what report are you talking about? Was it about the law school's grading? Also, I'd imagine it's hard to gauge difficulty of getting an A, but somewhat possible.</p>

146

<p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20000829094953/http://www.pcmagic.net/abe/gradeadj.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.archive.org/web/20000829094953/http://www.pcmagic.net/abe/gradeadj.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Table above shows the GPA adjustment for Boalt's admission. Essentially, the higher the "rank" the more bonus is added to the GPA for admissions evaluation. So according to Berkeley's own law school, getting a 3.5 at an Ivy undergrad is more of difficult than getting a 3.5 at Berkeley undergrad, and thus the Ivy applicant would have the advantage, ceteris paribus. In other words, accordign to Boalt's admissions policy (1997), there is actually grade deflation at Ivies and no grade deflation at Berkeley.</p>

147

<p>I think you're missing something big here, and that the LSAT is a factor in the equation. I also don't think LSAT score and ability to get a good grade with regard to intelligence have more than some small correlation, but that's my conjecture. </p>

<p>I don't think your conclusion follows from the information- I think what the article does mean is that, according to Boalt admissions people in 1997, the Ivy league schools were doing better on their LSAT than their GPA indicated they should, and were given extra points, while the Berkeley students were doing about as well as they were predicted to do on average, and thus were given no extra points. Now, if their GPAs were even lower, they'd be given extra points. Your conclusions do not follow from the information provided, and you should also know that "grade inflation" is a trend, rising over time, and both the Ivy league and Berkeley have it- it's just that on average, a Berkeley GPA is about .2 points or so below an Ivy GPA- maybe even more than that, but all nine schools seem to have rising average GPAs- perhaps Princeton won't because of their new policy. Penn's average seems to be a similar to Berkeley's.</p>

148

<p>I personally chose Princeton over a Regents Scholarship at Berkeley. Here's my take on the issue.</p>

<p>I got into some great schools, but Berkeley was still in my top 5 choices. After the super-elite schools (HYPS), Berkeley can compete with anyone at the undergraduate level. I would've chosen Berkeley over both Duke and Cornell.</p>

<p>That being said, I AM an engineer. Berkeley's engineering is, in my opinion, better than every ivy league's and far more prestigious. If I wanted to be a pure engineer, I would've gone to Berkeley in a heartbeat. It's an amazing place for an engineering education. </p>

<p>When it comes to the humanities, I think Berkeley has both good points and bad points. For huge majors such as bio and econ, Cal students get the shaft. That's where you have the huge classes and uber-intense competition, and it just isn't necessary. Otherwise, for those art history majors, Berkeley offers you all of its resources with very small classes.</p>

<p>This has been stated before, but for humanities classes, I think that they are very diluted, even at a world-class institution like Berkeley. It's far easier to get into Berkeley for a CA student than even a lower-tier Ivy, and it allows for many more students who just dont care as much about school.</p>

<p>From a cultural perspective, Berkeley and any Ivy are COMPLETELY different. Overall, I think the Ivies are far more diverse in thought. The overwhelming majority of UC students are Californian. Most of my friends who go to UCs have friends very similar to their friends in high school. For example, I have many Indian friends in high school. I know several who went to Berkeley, and sure, there's diversity at Berkeley, but who do my friends hang out with? Other Indian kids from the Bay Area. Seriously, they go around in little packs of kids who have all had very similar experiences. I'm not saying this is the norm, but from my personal experience, this happens a lot. </p>

<p>Ultimately, I did not think for a second that I would be receiving a BETTER education at Princeton. I felt that I would be receiving a much more well-rounded education with richer elective classes . I also thought my overall experience would be much richer, with more doors open to me, accessible professors, and a diverse student body. That said, I think Berkeley's a great school and if I had any financial concerns whatsoever, I'd go to Berkeley in a heartbeat.</p>

<p>Notice in my entire post, I'm referring ONLY to Berkeley. I think only Berkeley (and maybe UCLA) can compete with the Ivies. We can't talk about the UC system as a whole, only the very top of the UC system.</p>

149

<p>Well said.</p>

150

<p>About peer assesment.</p>

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Peer assessment (weighted by 25 percent). The U.S. News ranking formula gives greatest weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's academic excellence. The peer assessment survey allows the top academics we contact--presidents, provosts, and deans of admission--to account for intangibles such as faculty dedication to teaching. Each individual is asked to rate peer schools' academic programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished). Those who don't know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly are asked to mark "don't know." Synovate, an opinion-research firm based near Chicago, collected the data; 57 percent of the 4,098 people who were sent questionnaires responded.

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<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/06rank_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/06rank_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

151

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Trust me, I have no desire to hear him drone on anymore than I already have.

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<p>Like I've said countless times, if you don't like my posts, then don't read them. Nobody is forcing you. Whenever you see my name on a post, you are perfectly free to ignore it.</p>

152

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UCLAri, the Times and the Shanghai ratings for example both have Berkeley well ahead of Princeton

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<p>The Times ranking has Berkeley 3 slots ahead of Princeton. Is that "way ahead"? I guess that's all a matter of how you define "way ahead". </p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THES#Top_universities_overall_.28worldwide.29%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THES#Top_universities_overall_.28worldwide.29&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Shanghai ranking has Berkeley 4 slots ahead of Princeton. Whether that's "way ahead" again depends on how you define the term.</p>

<p><a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Furthermore, both of these rankings are a consolidated undergrad+ grad ranking that mostly focuses on research. Non-research focused schools, such as the LAC's or quasi-LAC's, don't get much mention. For example, according to the Shanghai ranking, Umass gets a higher ranking than Dartmouth. I doubt that too many people would choose to go to UMass instead of Dartmouth for undergrad (except to save money). Wisconsin is ranked higher than Duke or Northwestern. How many people are really going to go to Wisconsin over Duke or NW for undergrad, again, unless to save money?</p>

153

<p>IVY OF COURSE!!! I live in Cupertino, CA where everyone goes to UCLA or UC Berk but IVY IS SO MUCH BETTER.. Better alumni for connections after graduation and its an Ivy</p>

154

<p>berkeley is a very good school for computer science and engineering… better than SOME ivies for THESE PARTICULAR topics</p>

<p>however stanford and the ivies are generally superior</p>

155

<p>I suppose coming from California I feel that everyone from CA gets into the UCs, so there really isn’t as much prestige involved with them. The exception is Berkeley and maybe UCLA, but I would say that they are probably only comparable to the lower ivies, and Berkeley’s engineering is fairly close to the ivy engineering.</p>

<p>Berkeley isn’t too bad of an area in terms of climate, but Cambridge would be a much nicer place to live. Also Berkeley isn’t quite as intellectual as I’d like, as it is fairly easy to get into.</p>

<p>I’ve always seen it like there are multiple tiers Community College, CSU state college, UC state college, fairly good private college, ivy league.</p>

<p>It just seems that almost everyone here will end up going to a UC unless they want to strive for more, again with the exception of Berkeley which is a definite option if financial aid at an ivy league falls through.</p>

156

<p>I live in SoCal and it’s true that getting into the UCs in-state is no big deal. I got into all of the UCs I applied to with Regents Scholarship and what not. Berkeley is my top UC choice if I were rejected by all the private schools I applied to in terms of favorite. </p>

<p>However, Berkeley’s scholarship offers a very strong incentive both in regards of the money and the fact that I may have more research opportunities there. However, I’d be more likely to accept Princeton/Harvard over Berkeley any time. If I get accepted to UPenn, I’d probably have to choose Berkeley over it though (I’m a Physics/Math major). Also, I should mention that Berkeley has a very lenient double major program which I’m very fond of.</p>

157

<p>This is an old thread but the argument goes on. My children are CA in-state and 1 chose Berkeley over Cornell. iv4ME says it well, most ppl will find it difficult to pass HYPS over Berkeley cuz of prestige and resources, but in engineering and chemistry berkeley really rock ( even better than the ivies). But the downside:</p>

<ol>
<li>Huge classes and impacted majors ( ECON, Bio, Chem, etc) mean lower GPA and poor advising</li>
<li>UG research is cut-throat and comeptitive cuz of large student:faculty ratio</li>
<li>2-3 people squashed in a room, unimpressive town</li>
<li>Poor advising for post-G school and health school</li>
</ol>

<p>Nevertheless, ppl who will do well will excel in both UCB and HYPS–just that you have nothing given to you on a plate at Cal cuz it’s a state school. But S loves it and fits in well. Good luck to all who consider Cal–money can’t buy everything man!</p>

158

<p>Generally, HYPS considered better than Berkeley. But in Science and Engineering, not even a competition. For those technical fields, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Caltech replaces HYPS. It is a matter of course to choose Berkeley over Ivies to people looking forward to majoring in those fields. Moreover, Berkeley academics are not much fall behind Ivies. Some rankings;ARWU, THES etc, places Berkeley as a peer group with HYPS. (ARWU 2010 ranked Berkeley in the 2nd right after Harvard, THES 2010 ranked 8th)
In addition, perception on Berkeley outside of America is slightly different from college confidencial’s. They looks berkeley as one of the best college in U.S… They regrad as HYPSMCB. (Pretty sure because I am Asian and have shared a lot conversations on U.S. universities with students who are preparing to study abroad, and even industry recruiters.) </p>

<p>Personally, I think USNWR that most people in college confidential rely on, has a disadvantageous criteria on public schools, and that makes Berkeley so underrated.</p>