“STEM” is not disjoint from “liberal arts”, since science and math are in both sets. Some people may debate whether computer science is a liberal art (it has some aspects of both math (a liberal art) and engineering (not a liberal art)), but just because it is in “STEM” does not exclude it from being in “liberal arts”.
I read the advice and either agree or disagree. This time I agree. BTW, all those other things roll into fit as well. “Fit” is a hard concept to pin down - there are many facets. Sometimes you only know what it’s NOT.
You have to take into account the context of where the person is taking the stem classes. I know UCB students majoring in math and science, they don’t consider themselves in any sort of liberal arts program. They’re solving problems, tons of them, not reading books and discussing them.
And since many math and science majors are pre-professional, they’re not really liberal arts, right, since they’re in college to get a job?
Thanks for this - your advice is super clear! How would UChicago CS & Econ compare to CMU IS?
Math students read math books and papers and discuss them among themselves. Science students discuss science books, papers, and experiments among themselves.
Many humanities and social science majors are pre-professional as well. For example, consider those who choose economics as a substitute business major aiming for some business (including Wall Street or consulting) job, or those who choose political science or English for pre-law purposes (even though no specific major is required), or those who choose a major like English or history as preparation for teacher credentialing to teach the subject in high school, or those who choose a visual or performing arts major hoping to make a career out of visual or performing arts.
Also, science majors do not necessarily have good job prospects. Consider all of those biology graduates who did not get into medical or other health professional school.
It depends on what you really want to study.
@theloniusmonk, you might need to go back and read this thread. OP was admitted to Berkeley’s L&S which is 1) a liberal arts college with a number of requirements over and above the university and campus that put it on par with any other liberal arts college including UChicago in terms of actual number of required courses. Including Foreign Lang. and 2) not a direct admit to the C/S major.
As @ucbalumnus has pointed out, “stem” and “lib arts” are not incompatible. As a concrete example, I have a relative who graduated from L&S with an AB in Physics and went right to a PhD program at MIT. He’s STEM through and through but he also received a liberal arts education, as he would readily admit. As for the “pre-professional” question, this speaks to the college’s career placement program. My D can attest that it’s more than possible to attend a Liberal Arts College, major in non-STEM (history, in her case) and end up in a highly professionalized and credentialed occupation, since that is exactly where she’s headed. Neither of these examples is unrepresentative - but I will say that if one isn’t doing something that’s “hot” they should check out Cal Berkeley’s career placement. It’s been awhile but my recollection is it can be “hit” or “miss.”
Second this. Both CMU and UChicago have excellent career placement services. We know this from our own research, our own experience, and the experience of many we know who have attended both institutions. Both are recognized for giving you a serious education. You can’t go wrong with either. It’ll come down to what you want to study.
Edit to add: in fact, OP, that really should be your metric. What excites you? what DO you want to STUDY?
um it depends on the comparison of schools so in this case since they are similar in prestige it comes down to fit(which includes research opportunites). also please read my comments with a nuanced perspective
Also stop caring too much about prestige that CMU IS is not that prestigious as CMU CS. both are great. they serve different purposes. stop comparing cs vs is. on the basis of your career goals, i’d say CMU IS.
Like CS, econ is fairly broad and covers a lot of areas. However, it isn’t a substitute for finance as it doesn’t dive deep enough into the plumbing behind the financial markets and the instruments used by the practitioners in those markets. You can take relevant courses in UChicaco Booth in addition to your CS & Econ double majors, but it may not be practical, especially with UChicago’s Core. Moreover, that combination is still an imperfect emulation of the CMU IS (plus a Tepper finance minor/major) because the CMU combination focuses primarily and much more on practical aspects of technologies and finance than the UChicago combination would be.
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It is actually really easy since finance is just a specialization within economics. The OP might be very interested in the Business Economics track at UChicago.
Yes, I am!
It looks like a great double major option and something that I can do together with CS. After more research on the Core, I am not opposed to the idea of doing different subjects throughout my 4 years - in fact, it would be a lot like my current high school but with more depth in each subject.
I’ve really narrowed my options down to UChicago CS & Business Economics vs. UC Berkeley CS. I think these are the best for me in terms of fit and also considering other factors like environment, I think UChicago is a better choice for me over CMU.
People have been asking what I want to do on this thread, and I am honestly 100% not sure what I want to do as my first job, but I do want it to be something in tech - whether it’s working in fintech, FAANG, or a startup. I’m not sure, but I do know that I want to study computer science with some economics, and that I want to do something in tech.
I’ve talked to people at UC Berkeley and they say that I shouldn’t have that big of a problem declaring CS as long as I keep my schedule light for my declaration classes and because I have prior experience in programming. Still, the roughly 40-50% CS major declaration rate is concerning. The pros of UC Berkeley are access to Silicon Valley/location, strength of the CS department, and international reputation. The cons I’ve found are: heavily impacted CS major, competitive to find opportunities.
When it comes to UChicago, as a few people have pointed out on this thread, I think it’s a whole lot more selective compared to UC Berkeley, and in general, the average random kid from UChicago is likely to be of higher caliber than that from Berkeley. I think this is just because UC Berkeley is a public school and has a duty to the residents of the state, so it’s less selective for residents compared to internationals and out-of-state people.
One advantage of Chicago is that it would let me graduate with a Masters in Computer Science in 4 years if I meet a certain GPA requirement. Talking to people, it seems that a Masters in generic CS is not as useful as a Masters in AI, but it’s still a cool perk.
I value the humanities and liberal arts. I don’t enjoy just doing one subject, but I like learning things across different fields, so I am not opposed to the UChicago Core. In school, actually, my course grades in the humanities were more consistently strong than my course grades in the hard sciences. With that said, I really would not want to be in a situation where my GPA is brought down by humanities courses. I’ll have the opportunity to take humanities courses at both colleges though, because at Berkeley I was admitted to L&S.
The pros I’ve found of Chicago are: easier access to research and professors, smaller class sizes, as strong in economics as Berkeley is in CS. The cons I’ve found of Chicago are: weak in CS (which is my main subject), being in Chicago.
I’m honestly torn between these two options but there’s at least been some progress made in narrowing it down - thank you so, so, so much to everyone on this thread for your comments and advice, I’ve learned so much from everyone and I’m very grateful for your time and wisdom.
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Is either of them better/worse for business and graduate school?
I don’t believe it’s feasible to do a 4-year Bx/MS program in CS while double-majoring at UChicago. @Eeyore123 may have a better perspective on this. In any event, even if it’s possible, it may not be wise to stretch yourself too thin. Try to construct a 4-year course plan that will meet all the basic requirements plus all the additional courses you need to take (or are interested in taking) that will help achieve your goals.
BTW, if you’re interested in AI, Berkeley CS would be the better choice.
I’ve tried to construct a 4-year course plan and I think you’re right. It’d probably not be a good idea to do both especially at such a hard school. I’d have to pick one over the other.
I think I’m just going to try and figure out which curriculum is more project-based. Anyone have any thoughts on this? In the meantime I’ll try and calculate the proportion of projects at each university.
Both are good for graduate school
“you might need to go back and read this thread. OP was admitted to Berkeley’s L&S which is 1) a liberal arts college with a number of requirements over and above the university and campus that put it on par with any other liberal arts college including UChicago in terms of actual number of required courses. Including Foreign Lang.”
There’s a lot of flexibility though at Berkeley in how to satisfy the requirements, probably more than at UC or a similar LAC. There are about 15 course requirements from my quick analysis, but you can use courses to fulfill more than one requirement, in addition to community college courses, APs, subject tests, many also have placement test to get out of. If you can do any of that for UChicago, that would be good info for the OP. I’ve been to both schools for tours and sessions, know kids from both, the feel is not the same wrt how the requirements are talked about. UChicago stresses a more tight knit environment with the core, Berkeley is more about getting a broader education at L and S.
“I think I’m just going to try and figure out which curriculum is more project-based. Anyone have any thoughts on this?”
Outside of course descriptions, you may have to consult college, professor/course review sites, but those are all have some bias in them.
UCB L&S requirements are listed here: Degree Requirements | L&S Advising
- Entry level writing: most fulfill it by AP or UC-specific placement testing; otherwise requires a different version of the first Reading and Composition course (6 credits instead of 4 credits).
- American history and institutions: most domestic students fulfill it in high school. Otherwise, 1 course from a small list of courses is required.
- American Cultures: can be double up with other requirements.
- Reading and Composition: 2 courses, AP English 4 satisfied first course, AP English literature 5 satisfied both courses.
- Quantitative Reasoning: 1 course out of math, statistics, computer science, or data science courses, or score from various exams.
- Foreign Language: college second semester (10 credits, 0 to 2 5-credit courses), high school third year, or exam / placement score.
- Seven Course Breadth: must be fulfilled by 7 college courses (no AP, IB, etc. scores allowed to fulfill).
So minimum of 7 courses if all possible requirements that can be fulfilled on entry are fulfilled on entry, up to 13 if various other requirements are not already fulfilled on entry. Most courses are 4 credits, but there is variation in course credit values, so the 28 to 52 credits (out of 120, so 23% to 43%) would be needed for these requirements beyond major requirements. Note that a course can be counted for both major requirements and the requirements listed above, so many students will automatically fulfill one or more of the 7 course breadth from their major requirements.
Chicago’s core is is described at Degree Requirements | The College | The University of Chicago | The University of Chicago . Note that Chicago is on the quarter system, and requires 42 courses to graduate (though a 4 course per quarter load will result in 48 courses).
- Humanities, Arts, and Civilization Studies: 6 courses. Cannot be fulfilled by AP credit.
- Social Sciences: 3 courses. Cannot be fulfilled by AP credit.
- Mathematical, Physical, and Biological Sciences: 6 courses. 5 of them can be fulfilled by AP credit (but it does not look easy, in that it includes 5 on both AP physics C (2 courses), 4 on AP biology (1 course), 5 on AP calculus BC (2 courses).
- Foreign Language: to third quarter college level, 0 to 3 courses depending on placement.
Total is 10 to 18 courses, or 24% to 43%. However, Chicago is more restrictive on choice of courses allowed to fulfill requirements than most other universities, including UCB.