UChicago=Ivy League?

<p>trollnyc, I wonder what bashing Chicago is a “coping mechanism” for…Hmm…</p>

<p>I’ve been following this thread for a few days now as it has struck a chord with me. My son applied EA to both MIT and Chicago. He truly loves both schools. However, if he get into Chicago and not MIT we will have him apply to Princeton also since he is double legacy. I don’t think he really likes Princeton as much as Chicago but since he has a decent shot of getting in… </p>

<p>As a parent I am struggling with him picking Chicago over Princeton. There are many reasons for this feeling, but I am not sure a 17 year old can or would appreciate my thoughts on the matter. At what point must you, as a parent, back off and let your child decide these sorts of things?!!!</p>

<p>Well,</p>

<p>If my kid is choosing a community college over Harvard, I would be worried and even question his judgment, and, as you said above, would be wondering “At what point must you, as a parent, back off and let your child decide these sorts of things?!!!”</p>

<p>However, since your kid is choosing one school over the other, both of which are within the top 10 school list, I would have to ask you a pointed question: </p>

<p>Are you concerned about the long term negative impact this “ill conceived” decision on his part will have on HIS LIFE?</p>

<p>Or, are you uncomfortable with his decision because of how it impacts you: as in, not being able to say my kid is going to Princeton, MIT, Harvard, whatever: you know, after all, Joe Schmoe in central Wyoming knows all about Princeton, but perhaps not Chicago.</p>

<p>Would you also be wondering out loud whether your son should marry someone who only graduated from Columbia instead of Harvard? This has a long term consequences too, think about the children out of this marriage!</p>

<p>I know I am coming across very cynical here, and I apologize for being sarcastic - not my usual mode. However, reading this post, I just couldn’t shake this “let them have a cake instead” metaphor off in my head. When parents are wondering “at what point must you let the child decide these sorts of things”, we are thinking about things like a child who wants to enlist and go to Iraq, potentially risking his life.</p>

<p>If he really loves both schools (Chicago and MIT), why would you want to dissuade him from either? Interference of this kind probably wouldn’t do any good, and might actually do some harm.</p>

<p>You want your son to enjoy Eating Club and party all weekend go to Princeton. You want your son to be challenged go to Chicago or MIT. Chicago will be a better choice if you want a more well rounded curricullum. MIT will be a better choice if you want to end up majoring in engineering. Just my view.</p>

<p>This conversation has taken an interesting turn.</p>

<p>I think high school conventional wisdom is that you want the school that’s ranked highest. CC wisdom says otherwise. And, indeed, my high school friends who made “ridiculous” college decisions (i.e. choosing #50 instead of #15, #70 instead of #10, #30 instead of #4, all without financial incentives) are among the happiest with their college decisions. I even have a friend from high school who transferred after a semester at #25… to #60. #60 is a great fit for him (thriving college town, great academic program, fun for him) while #25 didn’t really work (not a great town for him, students not his type, etc.)</p>

<p>All of these friends made their college choices intentionally. They weighed out the pros and cons of attending each school…even though they felt odd about going against the grain. However, they’ve been able to take advantage of what their school has to offer in lots of incredible ways.</p>

<p>I made my decision to attend Chicago very intentionally, with both upsides and drawbacks in mind, and clearly it’s not a decision I regret.</p>

<p>HST said:</p>

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<p>You did not read the post carefully. This concerned parent said “if he get into Chicago and not MIT we will have him apply to Princeton”. So, MIT is OK. If S gets into MIT, they will call it quits. After all, rumor has that Joe Shmoe does know about MIT. </p>

<p>By the way, I am not a U Chicago fundamentalist. If my S had gotten into Princeton, I would have said Hurray!!! He would have chosen it over Chicago, and I would have been fine with that. </p>

<p>But part of me would be left wondering what he would miss by not going to Chicago with its wonderful emphasis and reputation for intellectual rigor and tradition: between my S and me, I am the one with the “life of the mind” bug. I have always pursued it, and tried to inculcate it in my kids by taking them to all the major and not so major museums in over 40 countries in the world. Does not look like I have a very high success rate: S1 wants to become an unrepentant capitalist wing nut (Chicago kid), and the other one wants to become a die hard military wing nut (S2): I have to confess, for S2, I had my share of two second wondering “at what point, should a parent let the kid decide for himself” - you know, he may be deployed to a war zone. I did talk to him about going to college, joining ROTC and joining military as an officer, rather than enlisting right out of HS. He is going in that path, not because I twisted his arm, but because he felt that it’s a better path for him.</p>

<p>BTW: For S1 between MIT and Chicago, the choice would have been Chicago for both my son and us, no doubt about it. He is not an engineering/comp sci major, so, MIT has no special appeal for him, and I want my son to be a well educated intellectual with a solid understanding and insight into history, culture, literature, classics, music, art…</p>

<p>When do you let the kid decide? When all the acceptances are in, the FA packages are workable, the kid has visited the finalists, talked to students, profs, advisors, colleagues, and mulled things over (without parental interference) for a week or two.</p>

<p>S1 came to us about ten days before the deadline with a spreadsheet analyzing the criteria he used to make his decision and the weighting he gave to each. He then took these factors and applied them across his top three schools (Chicago, Mudd, MIT). He readily conceded that there were advantages at each school the others couldn’t match, and knew there would be tradeoffs of one form or another wherever he chose. It was abundantly clear he had given this process considerable mature thought. (I saved the spreadsheet because I found his analysis so…S1-ish.) We then had a really productive conversation about his decisionmaking process and we delighted that he had given this the serious attention it deserved. </p>

<p>I will say that this S was very, very focused from the get-go on specific programs, drawing on an extensive network of profs, friends, etc. for advice. He did not have the usual college wish-list, in terms of where he applied or what he wanted from the school. I’ve posted about this previously, so won’t bore the regulars by repeating it.</p>

<p>I will admit there are times DH, S1 and I have all wondered “what if he had chosen MIT instead…” but he is VERY happy at Chicago. It has more than met his expectations, and to the extent he knew he’d be losing some things vs. MIT, he has found ways to make those things happen anyway, via jobs/activities at MIT and studying abroad next year.</p>

<p>While the neighbors thought S1 was nuts for turning down MIT, the folks who know Chicago’s math department understood perfectly well.</p>

<p>The teachers at S1’s HS were delighted he broke the mold and chose Chicago vs. the long, steady stream of students who attend MIT from his school. He was a total math/CS guy from elementary school on and began branching out into the social sciences during the latter part of HS. To his teachers, choosing Chicago represented a huge leap of maturity and insight on S1’s part.</p>

<p>Actually my reasons for sort of hoping my son would choose Princeton and MIT over Chicago are not what many of you are thinking. If you knew my family at all you would certainly know we are not into “prestige”! My son is shy and introverted and works far too hard. At Chicago, based on what I am hearing, he will only be driven to work harder. MIT and Princeton students both seem to know how to have some fun. Chicago seems a bit unbalanced to me.</p>

<p>If I was the one chosing among the three, Chicago, MIT or Princeton and $$$ is no concern, I will choose Princeton. Why? I like to enjoy my four year in college and I know I will graduate if I put in a little effort as compared to Chicago or MIT where I will have to work my butt off. Well I am different and I cannot speak for anyone else.</p>

<p>SooMoo…your son fit very well in Chicago. Chicago will harnest your son’s strength…hard work to his advantage. Chicago will bring out the beast in him. Princeton will destroy him imo. MIT will be a great fit too. Then again, it all depend if he wants to do engineering.</p>

<p>making<em>a</em>point, Princeton is notorious for Grade Deflation actually.</p>

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<p>I apologize for jumping my gun hastily. The whole thread started with a question on “Chicago’s prestige” vis a vis that of the Ivies, so I just assumed it.</p>

<p>So, if your concern is your son’s introverted personality, then it’s a whole different question. You have a valid point. One way to address this issue is to put him an active social setting where he will have no choice but to assimilate into an active social scene, and hopefully emerge as a wonderfully social person. But it also runs a risk: your son may instead feel ill at ease and withdraw and become further isolated. </p>

<p>Another way to address the issue is to put him where his “quiet” style is respected and given a time to mature into a more balanced approach gently on its own schedule. Based on everything I read, Chicago will let him do that. </p>

<p>So, which approach will be better, who knows. A fundamental question is: Does your son want to come out of shell? Or, perhaps, this is how he likes it!!! It’s really for you and your son to think about. I have no visibility into this particular situation.</p>

<p>BTW: Based on what I read, MIT is not exactly socially teeming place either. On the other hand, my freshman son reports to me that contrary to the popular myth, fun did NOT come to die at Chicago as far as he is concerned. Furthermore, he is delighted that he has friends who can dissect the pros and cons of different kinds of translation of Greek tragedy and other friends who can really show him “good times”. </p>

<p>Again, I am not a Chicago fundamentalist. I think Princeton, MIT, Chicago are all really great places - just different and with different strengths. Your son is lucky that he has the luxury of choosing among such wonderful places.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>We all know that all these three schools are extremely competitive and are a reach for anyone who applies. So I am realistic.</p>

<p>I know why my son loved Chicago. He knows he would be comfortable there. I guess, as a parent, you wonder if perhaps he should go out of his comfort zone a bit and grow in different ways.</p>

<p>It is hard for a 17 year old to have perspective.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the interesting thoughts. It has given me a lot to mull over. I agree with a previous poster who said that the Chicago threads were the most thoughtful on CC. I think I am taking this thread in a different direction though so I will bow out!!!</p>

<p>Newmassdad:</p>

<p>I stated in my previous post that the HYP-bashing (implied or blatant) gets a little old for me. You seemed to scoff pretty hard at my assertion. Here are, generally, some of the posts and themes on this discussion thread that, to me, sound like derisive:</p>

<p>At a table filled mostly with HYP students: “When he got to S1 and heard he attended Chicago, he sat back in his chair smiled, turned to the others and said, “We have a genius at the table.” “Now there is a school.””</p>

<p>“The University of Chicago, for one, has wielded much more influence in recent decades.” (A quote from an Atlantic Monthly Article on the theme comparing Chicago and Harvard.)</p>

<p>““Tell me that moment in class or later in a discussion when you had your first intellectual epiphany, that aha! moment when you saw something in your world quite differently than the moment before?” He was astounded that not only did the [HYP] students not immediately report any such event, some asked if he could explain what he meant. With a couple of individual student exceptions, this was a recurrent theme, until he visited Chicago.”</p>

<p>“Harvard students seem boring, obsessed by numbers and prestige, and all too many of them seem very pre-professional.”</p>

<p>“You want your son to enjoy Eating Club and party all weekend go to Princeton. You want your son to be challenged go to Chicago or MIT. Chicago will be a better choice if you want a more well rounded curricullum.”</p>

<p>I dunno newmassdad, to me, all of these quotes, selected from a few different posters, seem like HYP-bashing (implied or blatant) to me. I don’t think it was unfair at all for me to say that certain posters included some pretty derisive comments about the HYP schools.</p>

<p>Additionally, I think I discussed preference in my last post. I stated: “f you want a great, well-rounded liberal arts education, you can’t get that at MIT, and if you want to be right in a big city, you can’t get that at Yale. There are always certain factors that lead a student to pick a certain school over another.” </p>

<p>I just wanted to make sure students know what they give up when they eschew those schools for Chicago. Again, it makes perfect sense to pick Chicago over Yale if you want to be in a big city, or Chicago over MIT if you want a great liberal arts education. All of these schools are so good that a student would be fine at any of them. At the same time, I don’t think it’s necessary - and in fact, it’s misleading - to say you won’t be challenged at Princeton or that Harvard students are prestige-obsessed or whatever. </p>

<p>Again, I stand by what I said before: Academically, Chicago is on par with HYP. If you have some sort of personal preference (location, absolute love of deep dish pizza, whatever), that draws you to Chicago over HYP, then great, thats your personal preference. In a comparison between what elite undergrad colleges serve to do, besides academics, HYP outpaces the U of C in every other significant category (be it financial aid, connection to avenues of power, general strength of extra-curriculars, resources provided for the student, etc.). As I’ve said before, I then tip my hat to these schools - they still produce an overwhelming share of our nation’s leaders, and also conduct academics and research at a very high level.</p>

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<p>Are you implying that your son couldn’t become a “well educated intellectual”…had he gone to MIT? I suppose MIT doesn’t offer courses in history, lit, classics, music, etc. I could be wrong, but I suspect it does. Once again, these are the dumbest statements perhaps on CC. </p>

<p>Statements like these show intellectual laziness and lack of rigorous thought…</p>

<p>I tend to agree with Cue7. At times, there seems to be a bit too much attempt to put Chicago on the same level with HYP. All in all, as a “total package”, I think that’s stretching it a bit. That said, different people have different agenda. For some kids at Chicago, HYP would not have been the right place, while other kids would have thrived and perhaps done better had they gone to HYP. </p>

<p>In my son’s case, he would have preferred HYP, but it was also clear to him Chicago is a better choice for him than other Ivies, Stanford, etc. As much as he wouldn’t admit it outright, he is indeed a very much a young man with a serious intellectual bent. So after Chicago EA acceptance, he dropped all these from his list. However, an interesting thing happened: over the winter in his senior year, he fell in love head over heels with snow boarding, and he really regretted not having applied to Dartmouth - you can snow board literally on campus there! </p>

<p>As for me, I am so glad that he missed the application deadline for Dartmouth (if he had realized how much he loves snowboarding in time before the deadline, he would have!) With some gross generalization, the fact that Chicago is about the only school in the top 20 list that has a social scene with minimal contamination by the frat boys (or members of any pretentious and exclusive clubs and organizations) and sports jocks tell me all I need to know! I am sorry, I will get flamed by this (and I deserve to be flamed!), but I just can’t help it: any school where the frat boys and sports jocks are campus “in crowd” is not the kind of place I would like. Of course, I would never try to tell him what to do: he is out of my nest, but I am still gloating over the fact that he was not “tempted” by any of these schools. </p>

<p>I really am very glad that he is in Chicago. All things considered, it’s a great place for him, Had he gotten into HYP, he would have a great time, but I don’t think they would be better for him, just different.</p>

<p>trollnyc, if you desperately need to be a supercilious jerk, please do us the favor of actually reading people’s posts before you decide which supercilious-jerk thing to say. It will go some way to compensate for your attempt to turn a civil discussion into an uncivil one.</p>

<p>hyeonjlee did NOT say that her son couldn’t become a well-rounded intellectual at MIT. She said two separate things, separated by a comma and a conjunction as is common in written English. Thing one was that MIT held no special attraction for her son because he didn’t particularly care to study the things that draw most of its students to MIT. That is a perfectly good reason not to go to MIT, and I suspect lots of people share it – not only the ones who turn MIT down, but the 15,000+ kids (at least) every year who apply to Harvard and don’t apply to MIT. It’s no knock on MIT to say that. Thing two was that she wanted her son to be a well-educated intellectual. This thread has lots of debate about what that means, and I agree with Cue7 (and, I guess, you) that Chicago is not the only place where one can become a well-educated intellectual. However, Chicago is clearly ONE OF the places where one can do that, and it’s one of the places where it is easiest to do that, because everyone there is pretty much on the same page about wanting that. Sure, it’s possible to be a well-educated intellectual at, say, Duke, but you may have to swim upstream to do it, whereas at Chicago you would have to work extra hard to avoid it (unless you wanted to avoid it by flunking out, then you wouldn’t have to do much).</p>

<p>Like Cue7, I don’t thing being a Chicago fan requires denigrating HYP (or Stanford, or Brown, or whatever). There are things that Chicago does better than some or all of those schools, and things that some or all of them do better than Chicago, and in the end the differences in most important categories are not as significant as the similarities.</p>