UChicago More Popular Than Harvard, Stanford, Ivys at Beverly Hills High School

Regarding the relative stats of athletes vs non-athletes, results from the class of 2020 survey (before going test optional) are listed in the self-reported survey at Class of 2020 Survey – Chicago Maroon . I didn’t find info on more recent test optional years.

Chicago Recruited Athletes – Average SAT = 2149
Chicago Non-athletes – Average SAT = 2224

Comparing with Harvard at The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2020 By the Numbers

Harvard Recruited Athletes – Average SAT = 2115
Harvard Non-athletes – Average SAT = 2254

In this particular year, Chicago’s self-reported survey showed a ~50/1600 point gap between athletes and non-athletes, while Harvard’s survey showed a ~93/1600 point gap. This roughly matches expectations. Both schools have some degree of a gap between athletes vs non-athletes, but the gap is larger at Harvard and likely other Stanford, Duke, Ivy,… highly selective privates that compete successfully in Div I athletics.

Another difference is which surveyed group had the lowest SAT scores. In the Chicago survey, the lowest test score surveyed group was not athletes – it was Hispanic students (2098 Hispanic vs 2149 Athlete). In contrast, all ethnic groups averaged above athletes at Harvard. CA is ~40% Hispanic, so a Hispanic preference is relevant for the discussion about differences in CA admissions from other states.

I agree with this sentiment.

Cherry picking stats from 3 private schools in a state of 40,000,000 to support your argument? smh

Modesty and humility are fine in parlors, golf courses, and monasteries, but they are not the qualities you look for in a good discussion. Neither is petulant dismissal by recourse to pop psychology (“These people are showing their insecurities”) or the argument from herd behavior (“Why do only these people talk that way?”).

A dose of audacity and even exaggeration helps the medicine (all that data) go down and opens the door to speculation and passion. Give me the crackle and the fizz. Save the bicarbonate for the day after. ■■■■■-footing about what one thinks isn’t a virtue, and politeness in the world of ideas is simply boring. Our Lord Himself worked a touch of outrageusness into his parables. And don’t get me started on Socrates or Nietzsche.

We on this board aim high. Which is no doubt why we are so misunderstood!

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There is no doubt about MIT’s undergraduate program ranking among the best in the world. I was comparing it specifically to UChicago - another top-ranked institution. Collaborative projects are completely appropriate for engineering and other applied STEM fields - wasn’t referring to curriculum there, but to what I’ve heard about student culture from CC posters and other sources, as I qualified earlier.

MIT indeed has an excellent humanities curriculum, as other parents have attested. One of my favorite American historians was on faculty there. It’s tops in Econ. So it’s possible to pursue and even thrive in a non-STEM field at MIT, even if you by and large would be an unusual creature among the undergrads. But let’s be clear: UChicago’s Core is very different from MIT’s broad HASS requirements. I think this is a common confusion among those not really familiar with the Core Curriculum and who are used to seeing generals as broad distribution requirements rather than a specific curriculum with a specific purpose. The Core is definitely NOT a distribution requirement but a foundational curriculum designed to prepare the scholar for higher-level work at UChicago. For that reason it’s recommended that you complete the Core by the end of 2nd year. Also, you must take quality grades from the first quarter on (no P/NP). While there is plenty of choice among sequences, they are rather inflexibly set as 2-or-3-course pairings with essentially no freedom to switch out and have it still count, and that’s very different from the broad ranges of single-term choices you see elsewhere. We’ve noticed that even the arts Core can be writing-intensive, which brings the total number of close-reading and writing courses to about 60% of the total Core (before foreign language) and over 20% of your total required credits. That means that even if you are a molecular engineering major, 20% of your required courses will be in close reading and writing. While that’s certainly an option at MIT, it’s not a requirement. So it’s different at UChicago, and we know a few kids now who were quite informed of what the Core entailed and opted to apply elsewhere. They ended up at MIT and are/were quite happy there. The Core isn’t for everybody - nor is MIT’s curriculum. Personally, I don’t know many who enjoy the entire Core as it takes up a LOT of time in your first couple of years. You kind of have to be the type who doesn’t quite know what to major in, and who is perfectly happy filling up the first year with Core sequences that touch on all of the academic divisions. But of those who suffer through the Core and other aspects of the university’s undergraduate curriculum and aren’t thrilled, especially when comparing their workload to their friends’ elsewhere, most seem to appreciate the experience once they have graduated and a few years of distance has passed :laughing:

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@Data10, for some reason the Maroon stopped compiling those surveys - I think beginning with the Class of '21. Not sure why. By the way, Test Optional only began with the Class of '23 and I think at this point Covid has been and will be a game-changer for many admissions offices. That’s why the historical data is so useful when it comes to looking at test scores.

I’m not a golfer, but my brother is, and from what I hear there’s very little modesty and humility taking place out there. :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Seems a little self-discipline on the UC forum would good too.

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Sorry Sushy, the quarter ended last week. Lectures will have to wait till January :laughing:

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You don’t seem to fully appreciate the distribution requirements related to humanities/social sciences/writings at MIT and Caltech. A student there is required, on average, to take one such course every term (so 20% if the student takes 5 courses/term), while meeting their STEM “core” requirement and major requirement. In addition, some of these courses have to be among a specific set of “writing intensive” courses. All such courses have to be taken on grade (other than the freshmen courses). A student also has to take a set of technical writing and presentation courses. UChicago may have a well-deserved reputation for relatively high workload, but not when you compare it with Caltech/MIT. Everything is relative.

@1NJParent:

I certainly would not think UChicago has a higher workload than MIT or Cal Tech. The discussion - or perhaps debate - is over whether it has less, or is less rigorous, or less time-consuming.

MIT has a fine distribution requirement that reminds me of many others I’ve seen at other excellent schools. Students need to take 3-8 HASS courses inclusive of distribution and concentration. That is indeed, one per semester, on average, as recommended. There are something like 600 courses available to fulfill this requirement so the breadth is huge. There are two writing intensive requirements in the distribution and another two in the major; other than that, the only other requirement is that you take at least one humanities, one arts and one social science. So, given all that, what is the minimum number of close (ie interpretive) reading and writing-intensive courses you can get away with? Well, the answer is probably something like four which is really about 10%-12.5% of the total courses needed for grad. And how is that? Well, you can combine your humanities with a communication requirement and take arts practica and econ for the remaining distribution requirements - as just one example. There are probably a seemingly endless number of options. That’s what happens when you have 600 intro courses to choose from. You can select things that won’t tax you with hundreds of pages of reading this week or yet another five-page essay that requires another trip to the writing tutor.

Now, the reality, of course, is that MIT students often take more writing than the minimum, just like UChicago students will often take more than 20% of their courses in analytical writing - and will often take more than the six Math and lab science requirements. The typical student at either institution will do more than the “minimum” because they are engaged and interested.

MIT does what works for their students, and the outcomes speak for themselves. UChicago has a different purpose by offering a liberal rather than technical education, so requiring a relatively heavy dose of writing - even from their STEM majors - is in keeping with that particular goal. One is not more or less rigorous than the other - they are different from, not “better” or “worse” than, one another.

It’s not unusual at UChicago for those taking Calc and Gen Chem together (a fairly typical combination) to avoid taking Core Hum and Sosc concurrently because that would be a killer. Of course my non-STEM kids and many others take Core Hum and Sosc together but opt for a kinder gentler physical science sequence than Gen Chem (nearly everyone takes Calc). The point being that everyone gravitates to what they believe they can do best (or with the most enjoyment). At MIT, for instance, they are recommended to take one writing intensive in the fall of freshman year, and another HASS course in the spring. That sounds about right for a STEM major just starting out. MIT kids will want to do their Calc, Physics and either Chem or Bio in the fall, most likely.

I’d be surprised if both schools didn’t have comparable “training” in terms of presentation-skill-building integrated into the general and specific curriculum, introduction of technical/methodological writing, etc. Analytical writing is a skill that is quite particular to the subject across all disciplines, STEM and non-STEM alike.

That may be true as a standalone statement but the Humanities/Liberal Arts requirements of UChicago is definitely heavier than Caltech’s.

You do realize Liberal Arts include math and sciences, don’t you? If that’s the case, Caltech’s minimum requirements are much broader and deeper than UChicago’s.

However, in case you mean by “Liberal Arts” only humanities and social sciences, the minimum requirement at Caltech is still greater than UChicago’s. UChicago’s Core requires a minimum of 6 courses in humanities and 3 courses in social sciences while Caltech’s requires a minimum of about 12 courses in humanities and social sciences. Now, if a student wants to go deeper into humanities and social sciences, UChicago certainly offers more options in that regard.

BTW, MIT’s requirement is similar to Caltech’s except that it’s on a semester system so some conversions are necessary to compare with UChicago’s. Caltech is on a quarter system, as is UChicago, so comparison is simpler.

You are not quite getting JB’s point, 1NJ.

I will take your word for it that those schools require a certain number of liberal arts courses chosen from a broad offering of such courses. No doubt there are excellent courses among them and excellent profs teaching them. And no doubt there are excellent students among those who take them. But this makes for an educational buffet, not a cohesive foundation for future learning in these fields. And certain courses, such as technical writing, useful as they might be, can hardly be thought of in the same way as courses made up of classic readings in the great books in the humanities and social sciences. Figuring out how to punctuate instruction manuals designed for telephone linemen (something I once did for a living) hardly bears comparison with the skills derived from a course with readings in Homer, Dante, and Shakespeare - coupled with a requirement to think, discuss, and write on those urtexts of our culture. Something like that is, however, what one expects from a Chicago education. Indeed, it is mandated, is a foundational feature of such an education, not merely an option which one might pass over in order to take a course in recent fiction or poetry or the writing of technical manuals. These could all be excellent courses, they could even be very demanding. That’s not the point. They are not designed as a coordinated introduction in how to understand the world based on the best that has been thought and said. That is the purpose of the Core in a nutshell and what makes it different from loading one’s plate with a sufficient pile of self-chosen dishes. U of C students necessarily and collectively read many of the same texts, discuss the same ideas drawn from them, and come out it all with a framework for thinking about the world or, to alter the metaphor, an internal gyroscope, a way of orienting oneself as one goes through it. So I have found it, and so I understand from the testimony of recent grads it remains.

One interesting feature just introduced this past year is the assignment of particular sections of the foundational humanities course, which all first-years take, to particular houses of particular dorms. The discussions around those dinner tables, if communal dinners are now happening or when they happen in the future, must spill over directly from the classroom. The table-talk around those dinner tables must be lively and rich. That is the Chicago ethos in a nutshell.

MIT and Caltech have their own ethos, and I for one would be happy to read about them. Funny, though some visitors come on this board regularly to cheerlead for their favored schools and denigrate us poor Chicago believers, I never see Chicago visitors to MIT or Caltech or the ivies doing anything like that on those boards. There’s a reason for that: to anyone with eyes to see, each school is excellent at what it does, each has a different culture, each is worth celebrating in its own way. There are many overlaps, and these similarities are also interesting, but there is no univocal model of excellence in the multifarious world of higher education. That was the point socialdad was making a while back. It is an excellent one. Some of our visitors would profit from it.

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I don’t think you get my point, but I don’t want to belabor it, except to point out that the reason this thread exists in the first place is because some posters wanted to showcase the superiority of UChicago over others.

No. there are, in fact, EIGHT Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences course requirements at MIT, two of which must be writing intensives - the other two writing intensives must be in the major - and of which one must be Humanities, one must be Arts, and one must be Social Sciences. Since these are distribution requirements and not a separate curriculum, you have a choice of 600 separate courses to choose from with no required sequences. So yes it’s broad - as broad as you will find elsewhere, since practically all other undergraduate programs require at least eight non-STEM liberals. But as it only requires that you stay at the intro/survey level, it’s not deep. You can MAKE it deep of course. But you are not required to.

Example: a student at MIT can get out of there with a minimum of one humanities course or a minimum of one social sciences course which may or may not be writing-intensive per student choice. This is impossible at UChicago. Example: the arts course may be focused on practice - UChicago’s arts Core must be analytical and writing intensive EVEN if there is also some studio practice involved. Example: MIT requires two general writing intensives, UChicago requires nine. The differences are large. They are also appropriate to the two distinct degree programs.

As for STEM generals, UChicago and MIT are relatively similar; MIT requires one additional physical science, UChicago requires one additional Bio. But both total to six math and natural sciences.

MIT is a fine school - there is no need to try to dress it up to look more liberal-arts than UChicago.

A further word about “broad and deep.” Liberal ed programs are notorious for allowing lots of student choice. UChicago, in contrast is remarkably restrictive. Yes, there is “choice” - for instance, one chooses whether to apply and attend :laughing: And within each component of the Core, there are several (IMO) great choices. But the degree of student autonomy doesn’t match that in other, more open, curricula. That is by design. As a program of liberal study, it’s going to be broad. But the imposed sequences of the Core will make it relatively deep, at least in comparison to other liberal programs. And the “deep” component is truly difficult because it’s not about acquiring knowledge: it’s about acquiring thinking skills. This degree of “control” over the student’s educational choices is one reason why UChicago has been famous for “grade-deflation.” This is one reason why I recommend that people really understand what they are signing up for when they declare UChicago to be their “dream school.”

This hasn’t been mentioned recently but these two schools actually do share something very specific in common, and that is having a notorious motto that, unlike Fun, won’t come to die. And a hearty IHTFP to everyone out there in CC-Land!

No fears, @1NJParent - no one on the UChi thread thinks the school is superior to MIT.

You fail to recognize MIT courses are on a semester system. 8 MIT courses should be regarded as equivalent to 12 courses for a school on a quarter system. Caltech is on a quarter system and it requires 12 such courses and 3 writing-intensive courses (Caltech and MIT have almost identical requirements).

This is again incorrect. MIT and Caltech both require a significant portion (more than 50%, I believe) of the courses in humanities and social sciences to be at the “advanced” level, not “intro” courses.

No. As I explained earlier, the Core’s non-STEM curriculum typically covers a semester’s worth of material in a quarter. The College understood this fact when it opted to reduce the size of the Core from 21 to 18 courses (inclusive of Foreign Language) back in the late 90’s (and I assure you that the curriculum of Core Hum and Sosc is the same today as it was back then). That’s why students end up with hundreds of pages of reading every week.

I am not familiar with Cal Tech’s requirements, but 3 writing-intensive courses is simply a LOT less than what’s required in the Core. Again, Cal-Tech is a technical institute so it should have different requirements than a liberal ed program. That it offers a similar pace to MIT makes it very comparable. All schools set the pace of their coursework. There are no hard and fast rules, other than a general recognition that the quarter system generally runs faster than semesters. EDIT to add: there are, of course, “hard and fast” rules to comply with ABET or equivalent. Talking more about liberal arts components.

Ah - yes, you are correct - three courses are a concentration as opposed to strict distribution. So you can go “deep” in a subject; Econ, for example, or an arts practicum. Or something writing-intensive such as literature or philosophy. That probably provides a great complement to all the STEM. Certainly a lot more flexible than what they allow at UChicago! But most generals are.

It’s a fantasy to believe that a quarter-long UChicago course is equivalent to a semester-long MIT course. This type of belief explains why threads like this exist in the UChicago forum.

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