<p>I was accepted as a transfer to both these schools. I'm interested in ecology/behavior and I want to go to grad school. I'm quirky, but social, and I just spent a yr at an all-women's college so I want some reasonably attractive guys (hehe). I'm liberal, but I want intellectual and cultural diversity. Any comments you have regarding these issues would be very helpful.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Both would be great choices, and both offer very diverse student bodies. Have you visited both places? In my opinion they aren't as alike as they seem on paper. If you want to get right into a city, then Chicago might be a better choice, but if you would rather have a suburban campus with a somewhat rural feel then you might like Swat more...</p>
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In my opinion they aren't as alike as they seem on paper.
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<p>I agree. I think the one area where the two have something in common is their focus on academics with high percentages of students who specifically chose the schools because they want to study hard and be fully engaged in academics.</p>
<p>Beyond that, they don't share much in common. One is a mid-size research university; the other a small undergrad college. Each have with some pluses and minuses associated with their sizes, but there are very real differences in a the style of education at a mid-size research university and a top LAC.</p>
<p>I suspect that the sense of community is very different at the two schools as are many "quality of life" issues. Chicago is not known as a real "warm and fuzzy" place. Despite its reputation for intense workloads, Swarthmore strikes me as a fundamentally supportive, accepting, comfortable environment. </p>
<p>The locations are a bit of trade-off. The immediate environs of U Chicago are more urban than Swarthmore (which is good and bad). I think Chicago is a more vibrant city than Philly (although Philly is a pretty interesting place, much like Boston according to my D and her Boston friends). Access to their respective city scenes (museums, restaurants, etc) is pretty much of a draw -- both require a pretty easy train ride from campus. Weather during the school year is not even close. I don't think Chicago's campus comes close to Swarthmore's in terms of beauty.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the ideal combo would be Swarthmore undergrad and Chicago for grad school -- something that a LOT of kids do.</p>
<p>It's hard to advise the orginal poster without knowing what it is she doesn't like about Smith.</p>
<p>Let me clarify what I didn't like about Smith.<br>
I did meet some awesome people there. However, I felt like there was an ungainly percentage of people of relatively rich, sheltered backgrounds who therefore often made statements in class (particularly in my government class) that did not reflect much of a bigger picture. I got the impression many people took privilege for granted and therefore jumped to conclusions such as socioeconomic status was determined by intelligence, and that affirmative action was unnecessary. Also, I felt that a number of the classes were too easy, and that they catered more to making sure everyone could do work than to making sure everyone learned. I was among the minority of people who could readily read and understand Plato, Aristotle, etc. without having read them before. I did less writing at Smith than in high school (most papers were around 5 pages), and no papers for science or math. People at Smith did not treat work-study as a real job, and did not show up regularly, adding to the feeling that people did not appreciate how privileged we are. I did not like the fact that there weren't guys. Also, I was annoyed that I could not fit French, art, or an anthropology class into my schedule second semester, because of the limited number of classes at a relatively small school. I realized that with a limited number of teachers for each subject, sometimes only one, if I happened not to like a teacher for a subject I was wanting to study, I was basically screwed. </p>
<p>However, I was in love with the Swarthmore campus when I visited, and at least Swarthmore has guys. Philly I don't know so much about, but I've heard it's about as cool as Chicago. I think I'm leaning UChicago b/c of familiarity with great evolution/ecology department and b/c it's closer to home, but in a way I almost want someone to talk me into Swarthmore, b/c I like the idea of a close-knit community with brilliant, friendly people, guys, parties with guys, and a beautiful campus.</p>
<p>I would love to know why people who've gone to Swarthmore are more enthusiastic about it than people who've gone to UChicago. Is it just the size?</p>
<p>Since both UChciago and Swat are intense schools what is it about Swarthmore that makes it NOT "the place where fun goes to die"?</p>
<p>Escape:</p>
<p>To be perfectly honest, many of your criticisms of Smith (or similar criticisms) will be true of virtually any college or university.</p>
<p>I am not aware of a college where work study jobs are taken as seriously has they "should" be. We are talking teenagers.</p>
<p>I am not aware of a college or university where scheduling won't force you to choose a time, course, or professor who wouldn't be your first choice. Learning how to work around those issues is part of the learning experience. The real-world is seldom perfect.</p>
<p>I can't address the issue of your feeling smarter than your classmates. I don't believe that is a common feeling by many students at Swarthmore, but I also tend to believe it's probably uncommon at Smith, as well. I doubt there is a college anywhere on earth where you would never hear a statement from a student that leaves you shaking your head.</p>
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I would love to know why people who've gone to Swarthmore are more enthusiastic about it than people who've gone to UChicago. Is it just the size?
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<p>No. It's not just the size, although that is fundamental to what Swarthmore does. I do not believe it is possible to "scale" Swarthmore up to a much larger size.</p>
<p>Perhaps a few quotes from the most recent accreditation review panel headed by the President of Oberlin would get at the heart of why students love Swarthmore:</p>
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Swarthmore possesses a remarkably strong sense of community, particularly among students, faculty and members of the board of managers. Indeed, our team found Swarthmore to exemplify a "culture of community"--that is, community members' sense of trust in the College as a humane and equitable institution is so strong that it can and does rely more upon relationships and traditions to communicate values, rather than formal rules and regulations. Team members were particularly impressed by the trust in and satisfaction with the College that faculty and students expressed. Part of this strong sense of trust comes from Swarthmore's traditions of governance. Although the College no longer governs itself by "Quaker process," it remains strongly committed to participatory governance and to decision-making by consensus. Faculty, students, and members of the governing board, in particular, expressed great satisfaction with the traditions of Swarthmore governance, especially because they have long ensured that the entire College community would see to it that the institution would conduct its activities in humane and equitable ways. Then, too, with approximately 1300 students, Swarthmore is a small, intimate institution, and students, faculty and staff believe that any difficulties or grievances they express can and will be addressed in personal, face-to-face ways. </p>
<p>The team unequivocally concluded that Swarthmore is an exemplar of institutional integrity. Without doubt, it respects principles of academic freedom and conducts its activities through humane and equitable policies with all of its constituencies.
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Swarthmore is a deeply student-centered institution. All members of the team were impressed by the ways in which Swarthmore is focused on students in every aspect of its operation. The College recognizes that learning occurs in classrooms, laboratories, and studios, in residence halls, on athletic fields, and in a myriad of associational activities and extracurricular programs and services. The team concludes that Swarthmore makes a strong and deliberate effort to facilitate the intellectual growth of students both inside and outside the classroom.
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The most striking aspect of the Dean's program is the personal attention provided students. Students report that in every office of the division, staff are deeply concerned about their well-being and education. Counseling and an array of other support services are available and well-utilized by students.
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Swarthmore is justifiably proud of a remarkably strong faculty of teacher-scholars who are deeply committed to the intellectual development of an outstanding group of students. Faculty morale appears to be very strong. The excellent financial resources of the College enable it to be highly competitive with its peer institutions in providing excellent compensation to its new and continuing faculty. Excellent financial resources also permit an unusually generous student-faculty ratio, which facilitates strong intellectual mentoring relationships between members of the faculty and their students. The culture of community in which faculty and students approach intellectual work is very impressive: there is clearly a mutually supportive setting for teaching and learning.
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<p>In addition to responding "what he said (Interesteddad)", let me add my $.02 . Our daughter looked at U/Chicago (is going to Swarthmore). </p>
<p>KyMom is a Chicago native (Loyola) and with everyone's agreement, we removed U/Chicago as an undergraduate consideration. </p>
<p>Two reasons: The neighborhood - we've gotten used to small town safety - and didn't like the U/Chicago environs; also, I have professionally encountered staff from U/Chicago at meetings who are trying to do things to build "community" amongst students there. This is not a slam but perhaps an acknowledgement of the fundamental differences between the current environments at the two schools.</p>
<p>Swarthmore comes with an emphasis on building student communities as a given, as best as we can determine. I totally agree with looking at U/Chicago as a graduate school venue. </p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Bill</p>
<p>The "community" thing sounds simple. But, it is so elusive and so difficult to institute through administrative initiative. </p>
<p>My alma mater, Williams, is clearly wrestling with it...to the point of imposing a new housing system in an attempt to break down the de facto segregation on campus (including, but much more than, racial). The problem is that the students are strongly opposed to the new housing plan, so you already have a breakdown in the "trust" required to build "community".</p>
<p>Looking back, it was clear that my daughter felt "something" in all of her early interactions with Swarthmore students, alumni, faculty, etc. I don't think she was ever able to vocalize what that "something" was. With the benefit of first-hand exposure, it is now obvious what that "something" was: the palpable sense of community.</p>
<p>I chose UChicago. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the Swarthmore campus and the students I met, and the atmosphere/community. HOWEVER, I think some of the best learning opportunities come from getting out of your comfort zone. After college, you cannot expect a ready-made community, so I feel extending the coddling through college is not a necessity. It's not like UChicago students aren't friendly. Also, I know two very smart and nice professors in an area I want to research at UChicago and decided UChicago would be the best choice.</p>
<p>this thread is funny b/c a girl in my school, brilliant, chose Swarthmore over Amherst, Columbia, Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Williams, Chicago, etc....</p>
<p>My son was in a similar situation several years ago, choosing between Chicago and Williams (didn't apply to Swat), Carleton, and Reed. I don't think the difference in the quality of the on-campus education that he would have received at these places can be quantified. (Though I think Interesteddad's figures on PhD producdtion tell us something about overall culture.) It would be more a matter of taste. But for my son ultimately the decision to attend Chicago had to do more with location than anything else. He wanted to be in Chicago and once he enrolled he told us that he was now living in Chicago, not at Chicago. But had he chosen an LAC instead (probably should have applied to Swat to have the Philadelphia option given his major-league sports interests), he'd have done just fine I'm sure.</p>
<p>Sorry to get off topic, but bball87... is that girl, by any chance, named Tamar? A friend of mine from Great Neck turned down those exact same schools for Swat. Sorry, just wondering... carry on :)</p>