UCLA vs. COLUMBIA GS

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm a transfer student from a community college in California, recently admitted to both UCLA and Columbia GS. My major is philosophy. I'm completely divided on which college to choose. </p>

<p>UCLA is much closer and they are giving me a full ride, but I will most likely have to get myself in some debt for GS. My family is pressuring me to go to Columbia. </p>

<p>However, I've seen the really nasty thread on Columbia GS on here, and that has definitely added to my dilemma. Also, UCLA has a better philosophy department than Columbia, but the mere fact that Columbia is an Ivy with a more prestigious reputation also makes it a difficult decision. I should add that Im going to law school after this, and I'm totally uncertain as to how much the name of the school is going impact my law school admission. </p>

<p>I'm a first generation college student, so any expert insight would be greatly appreciated.</p>

2

<p>How much debt?</p>

<p>If you prefer UCLA because it is better in your major and will let you avoid debt, tell your family to put up the money for Columbia to let you be debt free there if they want you to go there.</p>

<p>Law schools are generally thought to be extremely LSAT and GPA focused. Columbia has higher [grade</a> inflation](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com%5Dgrade”>http://www.gradeinflation.com), but probably more competitive students. More in-depth information on UCLA by major can be found [url=&lt;a href=“http://www.aim.ucla.edu/aprs/apbaprs.asp]here[/url”&gt;http://www.aim.ucla.edu/aprs/apbaprs.asp]here[/url</a>].</p>

<p>Law schools are also expensive; it would not be a great idea to drag along a lot of undergraduate debt through law school.</p>

<p>If you do not go to law school, Columbia is likely to have a recruiting advantage in New York / Wall Street. But UCLA is more convenient for companies in the Los Angeles area.</p>

3

<p>Thank you for your response!</p>

<p>For Columbia, I’m looking at around 18k per year for the next two years. But I’ve also heard that you can make much better connections there!? I’m just trying to decide if it’s worth the name and connections?</p>

<p>I’m convinced that in the bigger picture, the name and prestige of my law school is going to be far more important than my undergrad. In which case, I would much rather go to a public undergrad and a private Ivy law school… My family doesn’t have the means to pay for it, but they are so taken with the name “Columbia”, they think that is going to mean Im set for life, so I should take out loans now! </p>

<p>But I completely agree with you! I know I will be getting myself in debt later, so I definitely want to try and avoid that now.</p>

4

<p>I think you should go to UCLA. </p>

<p>1) Columbia GS can sometimes be tough socially on students, as you won’t be part of the undergraduate (CC, SEAS, Barnard) Columbia community in the same way. Columbia GS students don’t get housing, they don’t get to come to reunions, and they don’t get access to the same career services or advising. Its a great degree for some, but with your needs I think the sacrifices for GS vs. CC or SEAS would be noticeable.</p>

<p>2) Law school is very much LSAT/GPA based and the Columbia prestige edge won’t really matter (considering the fact that UCLA is also very strong). </p>

<p>3) There isn’t going to be any advantage in terms of “connections” for someone going to law school.</p>

<p>At UCLA you will have more fun, probably get a higher GPA, and you’ll save a lot of money. I think its the choice here.</p>

5

<p>

</p>

<p>They have a rather exaggerated view of what a Columbia degree provides over a UCLA degree. Yes, the prestige of the law school makes a much bigger difference as a lawyer. And if you do not go to law school, not having $36,000 of debt will make life much easier when you are looking for and working in an entry-level bachelor’s degree job (check the <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html&lt;/a&gt; ).</p>

<p>More information:
[Top</a> 2011 Law School Rankings](<a href=“http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html]Top”>Law School Rankings)
[Dissecting</a> the Rankings: The ?Top 14?](<a href=“http://www.top-law-schools.com/dissecting-the-rankings.html]Dissecting”>Dissecting the Rankings: The “Top 14”)</p>

6

<p>Have you visited both campuses? I always stress this to people who are on the fence about two schools. UCLA and Columbia have very different atmospheres. Columbia is in the heart of the city; UCLA is unfortunately isolated in Westwood, unless you have a car or can stand hours on public transportation to get to the more exciting parts of LA. Columbia is also known as being a more focused, intellectual environment, while UCLA is more athletic and traditionally social. It really depends on what you’re looking for in a school, I think. I attended UCLA for the first two quarters of freshman year, so if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask! :)</p>

7

<p>UCLA places well into law school as obviously does Columbia. If you want to practice law in CA, say, it still won’t matter where you attend undergrad school. </p>

<p>Wrt law school, there will be leaning towards local firms that recruit you over ones, say, on the other side of the country. This is obviously because the cost of recruitment of law student becomes higher as the distance between firm and student becomes greater. The things that reduce/allay these costs would be if the firm and/or L school are national in scope and rep.</p>

<p>So, say, your obtaining a UCLA or Columbia bac with an Ivy League JD would still be quite attractive to a law firm in CA. In addition, if they note your origin of being, say, a SoCal, they’ll pursue that also. </p>

<p>In other words for all the previous, if you follow through with your plans, geography of u won’t play in your seeming ambitions of being an attorney wrt geog of employment.</p>

<p>But if you wanted to become a federal-court judge or a US Supreme Court Justice, then Columbia would be better for you. :wink: A lot of people attribute all the Justices as having Ivy degrees to the extreme copious volumes of material and the extreme qualifications needed to discern these materials at hand and to make forays into groundbreaking legal matters. I think, rather, it’s more how Ivy League students are more geared towards the extreme academic side of law and have probably prepared themselves since childhood towards this kind of life. Most everyone else is probably more into having a lucrative career or obtaining it, ie, putting food on the table. Most Justices come/came from weathy backgrounds.</p>

<p>So in other words, if you’re more geared towards the (extreme) academic side of law, then Columbia might be better suited for you. If you just want to be a staff atty that desires to become an equity partner of a firm, then maybe you should factor in cost of undergrad and later go to the best L school you can.</p>

<p>I have a small dispute with Eiffel’s statement:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t know what is meant by ‘isolated in Westwood.’ All the communities in SoCal are contiguous, connected communities. There is no isolation for UCLA students. There are plenty of places to dine, watch movies especially, within walking distance.</p>

<p>And all one has to do is go east on Sunset towards the clubs or west towards the beach, and these are not MILES away. Yes, a car is most desirable for the former or all things even those things close by, but public transportation is okay for the latter.</p>

8

<p>“Isolated in Westwood”</p>

<p>Isolated in the nicest paradise in LA? 15 minutes from Santa Monica? Wow we have exactly the opposite perspective.</p>

9

<p>Well, to each one’s own. :slight_smile: I found in my experience that I definitely grew bored of Westwood quickly. There really aren’t many good places to dine, and those that are good are often quite pricey. And yes, there are a couple movie theaters and drug stores, but the great majority of establishments in Westwood are restaurants. That’s not exactly what I consider paradise, or even a real urban environment. There really wasn’t much to do there, and I did go there frequently too. Also, slipper, I love Santa Monica, but it usually takes longer than 15 minutes to get there by bus. It always took me about 30 minutes at least. :-/</p>

<p>Now I haven’t visited Columbia, but from what my friends who go there have said, it is basically in the heart of New York City, and there is easy access to all the city has to offer. Public transportation is also famously much much better in New York City than in LA too.</p>

10

<p>Definitely a different perspective. UCLA’s campus is absolutely beautiful and I think Westwood offers enough for any 20 year old. Its a campus you can throw a frisbee, and there is so much activity on campus. I guess people are just different - I’d take casual healthy food, house parties, nice weather, and green grass over the concrete jungle anyday.</p>

11

<p>Different strokes for different folks, of course. :slight_smile: But out of curiosity, have you actually lived in Westwood though or attended UCLA? Because I agreed with your assessment of the campus and of Westwood before I actually attended UCLA and ended up quite disillusioned by the entire school.</p>

12

<p>to each one’s own…best of luck in whatever school you xfered to.</p>

<p>The fact remains that UCLA students are extremely happy and rate their experiences there among the highest of all colleges and universities in the country. </p>

<p>So it takes a very “special” person to be dissatisfied with one’s UCLA experience or to become jaded by its surroundings, including, esp, all the activity-centered things on campus. :wink: But then not having friends with cars or one yourself, would be limiting. My advice to all who consider UCLA: Make friends with cars at the least.</p>

<p>But lest we be accused of hijacking this thread, let’s get back on topic for the OP.</p>

<p>Loverofwisdom:</p>

<p>First a correction:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Your acceptance into Columbia’s General Studies program might be problematic wrt some of the concerns a prior poster mentioned as far as being set aside from the rest of Columbia’s student body. Sounds somewhat similar to the dispute between Ann Coulter and Keith Olbermann but not entirely obviously. But the main point is: it is still the Columbia name on your degree. </p>

<p>UCLA has a strong community of pre-laws, probably the strongest of all the UCs. UCLA places well in law schools all across the country, including Ivy Law Centers. But most UCLA students with these choices included might choose UCLA, Boalt or Stanford instead because they want to practice in CA. </p>

<p>With some of these things in mind, I don’t think you can go wrong with either choice.</p>

13

<p>Yes, we should probably stop getting off track, but I must reply to your rather condescending post, drax. Have you never heard of finding the right “fit” at a college? UCLA is definitely not for everyone, but that doesn’t make those who dislike it somehow flawed for being dissatisfied by it. </p>

<p>But I guess, like you say, I am a special person indeed, which is one of the reasons I didn’t like UCLA, haha. Almost all the people I met were very “typical”: anti-intellectual despite being at a top institution, obsessed with partying/drinking, doing whatever they could to slide by in every class rather than learn the material, self-absorbed and incapable of keeping a reciprocal conversation going…So, yep, my specialness did indeed lead me to seek a more intellectual and passionate environment. :stuck_out_tongue: I haven’t transferred yet, but I’m sure there is a more fitting place for me out there! :)</p>

14

<p>

</p>

<p>I would call it a jab of a comment or two, but, not condescending in any way. But we’re cool, you jabbed back…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I think the bold I is way overstated…I think you’re confusing the school with some of the southwest u’s…</p>

<p>Bold II: Yeah, I’m sure that might be the case for some UCLA students. But perhaps if you gave us an example of some of your conversation topics, that might help. CC is your couch, and you’re up – tell us.</p>

15

<p>Overstated? Nope. I’m just speaking from my personal experience. Did you even go to UCLA? If your experience was different, good for you. But that doesn’t mean anything in regards to my experience. </p>

<p>As for conversation topics, they were usually just normal things to try to get the ball rolling. Almost all of them comprised me asking others about their life, their classes, what they had been up to, what was going on in their relationships (once I actually got to know the people, of course :p), their past/present/future…you name it. I put in every effort to show interest in them, and barely any of them ever asked me in return anything about me. They would either continue talking about themselves the entire time or they wouldn’t really have anything to say at all. Classic rudeness and selfishness, but hey, I know it’s not just UCLA. It’s the majority of colleges/people. I just for some reason thought that UCLA would be different because it is a top-tier institution, and I falsely assumed that the students would be intelligent and friendly enough to be able to keep a basic conversation going. </p>

<p>But again, everyone’s experiences are certainly different. If you went to UCLA and found the students kind, engaging, and intelligent, I’m glad you found what you were looking for.</p>

16

<p>

What sort of “connections” do you need to apply to Law School?</p>

<p>On another note, you say your family has no money. The Krueger-Dale study shows that attending an elite college has no material effect on career earnings, as long as you’re good enough to get accepted but decide to go elsewhere. HOWEVER, there is one exception, and that is students from traditionally underrepresented classes… low income, URM, newly arrive immigrants. Do you fit one of those categories? If so, then the Columbia calling card would actually likely have a materially postive effect for you. I would choose Columbia if you’re in one of those categories. Read the antepenultimate (third from last) paragraph in this link: <a href=“http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx[/url]”>http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx&lt;/a&gt; “There is one group of students that even Krueger and Dale found benefited significantly from attending elite schools: those from disadvantaged backgrounds …”</p>

17

<p>I do have some snappy, snarky comebacks, but I’ll refrain. I really do hope you find the right college environment for you. I wish you the best of luck. Now back to the OP…</p>

18

<p>I’m not sure that applies in this case DunninLA. There is no question an elite school can make students aware of tremendous opportunities and expose them to fantastic alumni networks. But for someone going to Law school, this won’t matter as much. And Columbia GS is not Columbia College or SEAS, i.e. those very network benefits - aren’t going to be there in nearly the same vein. So yes, Columbia over UCLA. But not Columbia GS over UCLA, it literally has no advantages and costs more.</p>

19

<p>this situation exists at a lot of top schools (there’s even disparagement among full time programs). See educational school students at Stanford, Harvard, Penn and Columbia (Teacher’s college) vs. the rest of the grad programs. Or Harvard Kennedy students at Harvard. They are looked down upon by the some of the student body. But who really cares about impressing stuck up people at a cocktail party? I doubt most employers, save Investment Banks or finance companies, will really know the difference between Columbia GS and Columbia CC. I’d worry more about law school adcoms and if they would know the difference. In this regard, I can’t imagine Columbia general studies placing better than UCLA.</p>

20

<p>Slipper is obviously very misinformed on this issue. Columbia GS students do get housing and have alumni connections/job placement along wih every other Columbia undergrad. His misinformation on this issue has been well documented. He keeps talking about a social stigma, but this makes me think he has never even stepped foot on campus. I had the chance to attend UCLA, as did many people I know here (I’m a GS student). I have friends in CC and I’m currently dating a girl at Barnard. I’m also in a fraternity. I feel no social stigma, zero, zilch. I’m pulling down a 3.8 gpa and I’ve made some pretty good connections (lunch wih Eric Foner: 2011 Pulitzer Prize winer). Law school adcoms have no qualms with a GS grad, zero. I know 2 GSers at Yale Law, one at Stanford, and 3 at Columbia Law. As for business school, quite a few GSers get into Columbia Business School (I know a GSer in the undergrad/post grad dual degree program). </p>

<p>The truth is, guys like Slipper will always be out there, and they are a minority. But people with REAL knowledge of Columbia will know that a GS student had to jump through, ostensibly, the exact same academic hurdles as their CC counterparts. And when I graduate I will move back to Los Angeles and write on my resume:</p>

<p>B.A., History, Columbia University 2013</p>

<p>I will write this with confidence, knowing that I got my BA from the UNIVERSITY and had to take pretty much the exact same classes, and compete for grades with my CC brethren.</p>

<p>Expenses aside, a Columbia University degree will stand out in L.A. amongst a sea of UCLA grads.</p>