UCs or small liberal arts college

Parents Forum
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<p>My daughter wants to go to UC Berkeley or UC Santa Barbara for the excitement/fun of a large university atmosphere. She is very bright and a great student, but I worry about her feeling lost at a big UC school. She is a bit shy and not very assertive. I've tried to get her interested in small liberal arts colleges like the one I attended, but she seems to think they'll be boring. Have any of your had similar experiences with your kids? How have your kids fared at the big UC schools? On the Berkeley discussion forum, it seems lots of the kids have a tough time their freshman year.</p>

<p>A Worried Mom</p>

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<p>I'm a graduate of UC Davis & Berkeley. I started college when I was age 16 and I was quite shy as a teenager. I did fine -- I loved school so much I never went home. </p>

<p>Berkeley could probably be intimidating for an undergrad, but Santa Barbara is a more laid back atmosphere.</p>

<p>Even though the schools are big, kids tend to make friends with others in their dorm or kids they meet through various activities. Academically, once students decide on a major, they will be involved more with a specific department. I would say that the sizes of the various departments did partly influence my choice of major as an undergrad -- it was just nice for me to choose a major in a department where I could get to know all the profs. I was on a first name basis with my department advisor. I also had some very small classes and seminars. </p>

<p>It's tougher for math & sciences, though -- with the combination of huge classes & a very competitive environment. </p>

<p>In any case, I think it would be disastrous for a kid who wants a large university to be pushed into a small LAC -- a small college can just seem to restrictive and limiting for someone who wants the offerings of a larger school. However, you might encourage your daughter to consider some mid-size universities -- such as schools with around 5000 students.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I'm just raiding the parents' forum today...</p>

<p>But.</p>

<p>As a pretty shy kid who is excited about big universities, and refused to apply to my mom's alma meter because it was "too small and stifling"...I can see where your daughter is coming from. For kids it's really hard to articulate their true feelings about something. When I said her school was "dull", that's not /exactly/ what I meant (still trying to make up for that one...) Even though I'm shy and anti-social, I like big cities, being surrounded by a lot of people...I find that instead of pushing me into a corner, these environments actually push me out of my shell, make me a more interesting and excited person, whereas quiet, small places actually seem to facilitate my anti-socialness...haha. Some shy people will be hurt by a big university, and others will really thrive and grow in it. I would rather have a tough time in the beginning at a big, overwhelming university and adapt to it then to realize a year or two into a smaller one that I could be more excited about life someplace else ;). </p>

<p>Challenges a lot of times bring out the best in people!</p>

<p>That said I can also admit to being a little close-minded. If the big environment isn't for me, though, and it isn't for your daughter...well, sometimes you do all you can and in the end people have to learn from their own mistakes. If she is not a senior, encourage her to apply to some small schools just to keep her options open. I kind of wish I had done so...in a year she might not be in the same place she is now!</p>

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<p>fiskelove, I went to a large State university and my son now goes to a small LAC. At the time I was an extremely shy, unaggressive teenager. BigU was absolutely the wrong place for me. </p>

<p>Even though my son is fairly outgoing (but still not so assertive) the personal attention that he's received from his professors and his overall ease of adjustment has been far, far superior to anything I experienced. (And hardly boring.)</p>

<p>Now having said that I will proceed to completely contradict myself and advise you to let your daughter make this decision. Big universities ARE lively, fun places and thousands of kids figure out how to excel. So much of the college decision depends on "what clicks." If your daughter feels comfortable about these UCs, then, I'd say go for it!</p>

<p>PS, What year is your daughter? Has she already applied and is on to acceptance/decision process? If yes, then you can delay until you know where's she's actually in and try to get her to attend an accepted students weekend. If she's just a junior, maybe you could convince her to do a weekend visit at an LAC just for a comparison.</p>

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<p>fiskelove,
I PM'ed you.</p>

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<p>I actually think its pretty natural for introverted people (like myself) to prefer bigger environments. It allows for some anonymity.</p>

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<p>A friend of mine, who teaches at a small LAC in the northeast and whose daughters are both at Berkeley, observed - an LAC is a school kids grow OUT OF. Berkeley (and others that size) is a school kids grow INTO. In her experience, many students at LACs are bored by their junior/senior year..</p>

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<p>My son is a freshman at Berkeley. He was also looking at UCSB. Like your daughter, he thought smaller schools would be "boring". He is a somewhat shy kid but I think the big school has been great for him. He has made a group of close friends, goes to a lot of concerts in town and in SF, volunteers at the radio station etc. He loves it.</p>

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<p>fiske, one thing you haven't mentioned are visits. Has your daughter visited schools of various sizes to get a feel for what it's really like to be there? Without visiting she may be making some assumptions that a visit would dispel.</p>

<p>For an even closer look, many private schools have kids who volunteer to host prospective students for a nite, an even better way to get a feel for a particular school. This is arranged thru the admissions office. And assuming you're in-state from the schools you're considering, it's likely your D knows someone at various UC campuses she can visit and stay overnite with to get a sense of those schools.</p>

<p>My personal opinion is that shy and not assertive is not a good match for a UC. UCs offer tons of resources but the burden is on the student to seek them out. Whether it be getting guidance and mentoring from profs, advising, taking part in clubs and intramurals, career assistance, you name it, nobody at a UC cares whether you take advantage of the opportunities or not. If your D is uncomfortable approaching strangers then the perceived excitement/fun of the big school may be experienced more as loneliness in the crowd. </p>

<p>An article a while back in an SF paper about the atmosphere at Cal is at <a href="http://tinyurl.com/5jzkz%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/5jzkz&lt;/a> I don't post this to frighten your D, but she should ask herself whether this is really the right atmosphere for her. For many kids, of course, overall it IS and they love their time at Cal. And I agree 100% with other posters that you shouldn't attempt to force a decision on her. But if she hasn't fully explored the options yet, I think there is room for common ground where she at leasts visits various types of schools to see first-hand what they're like.</p>

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<p>My D attends Cal and she is a kid who could thrive in an LAC environment, loved her LAC style high school wants to know her teachers, and generally "buys in" to that small school family hype. We were concerned about her at Cal, she chose it for her sport plus location.</p>

<p>Her 1st year was rough, she missed that perfect high school gang, and she is a kid who is still in touch (thanks to facebook!) with many HS friends, her roommate situation was a disaster and she did not have a lot in common with many of the girls on her team.</p>

<p>So, there she was at a huge school and very sad. But, she rushed a sorority and she acclimated to the long distance thing with old friends, made the most of new friends and opportunities, and is having a bang up time. It was an adjustment, there were many phone calls, she knew intellectually what was going on, but she did not have to like it!</p>

<p>She is a kid who takes 1-2 years to acclimate and accept a new environment. When we moved for her HS years, she "hated" it for quite some time, then she loved it! She had to realize that HS group was gone, done, moved on, and she had to invest in her experience and move on.</p>

<p>D has had tremendous luck making a big school small for her- she sits in the fornt row, she attends office hours, she picks a Berkeley small seminar class with an amazing prof each term, she gets to know the GSIs, she gives energy to the sorority group and the sport group and the old far away friends and she knows profs well enough to debate which one to use for a reference...this is spring of sophomore year.</p>

<p>So, your D can make the school as small as she wants, but it takes a commitment to make it through the low times until she reaps the benefits.</p>

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<p>I have one D at UCSD and one D at UCLA (could you guess?). They're both doing fine and like their choices. My UCLA D is in her first year at UCLA and doesn't feel at all intimidated by its size or the number of students attending there. Both Ds have had no problems approaching professors, asking questions, etc. When it comes down to it, your D's experience will be largely shaped by who and what she decides to get involved with. She'll need to take the initiative to be open to new and diverse friends (and to not dwell on the old HS friends) and join activities she's interested in but from your description and by the mere fact that she's expressed a desire to attend a UC she'll probably do fine in this area.</p>

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<p>I think Just_Browsing has a good point about bigger environments actually being more comfortable for many introverted people. The problem with a small school environment is that everyone pretty much knows everyone else, so the kid who doesn't form a close knit group of friends right away may feel shut out -- there's nowhere else to go. The "anonymity" of the larger university means that there is always something going on - plenty of places to go where being a new face is quite ordinary, plenty of clubs or activities or associations that are always open to new members and input. And there's a little bit more room for shyness, I think -- I liked having a good mix of large and small classes, and I LIKED sitting n the very back row of a large lecture, especially if I was just not in the mood to interact with people. (My shyness/introversion is really reflected in moodiness -- I remember my college friends commenting on it, as sometimes I was quite withdrawn and other times very lively. I was quite happy at college and had a good group of friends, and was definitely included in everything I wanted to be included in.) </p>

<p>I also think that sometimes we introverts really do want to be around people -- we just want the freedom to be quiet and taking things in without being called upon to participate. I remember really loving the Berkeley campus when I was in law school -- I didn't know anyone outside of the law school, but it was cool to be on the campus with so many people around. I liked to study in open, public places -- my favorite place to study was the art museum, located across the street from the law school -- big, open, airy, plenty of people around, but fairly quiet. (As opposed to the library, where I could have my own cramped, dark, stuffy carrel -- yuck). </p>

<p>I also agree with Katliamom -- I think being on a large campus was a tremendous growth experience for me. There were opportunities galore -- and I did take advantage of many. Often I would find out about something of interest because of a notice posted on a campus bulletin board -- I never felt shy about showing up at the announced place and time.</p>

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<p>I went to one of the flagship UCs back in the 80's (when someone like me could still get in!!!) and I can truly say for me it was the best fit.....yes, it was huge, and the lecture halls for the general ed classes were like being in a movie theatre; the dorms (at the time) were miserable, but we could find affordable off-campus housing fairly easily. </p>

<p>What I loved about it was that no matter what you were into, YOU FIT IN. I wasn't a very outgoing or mainstream person, yet I never felt uncomfortable in the social scene, large as it is, since there was always other people around who felt the same way. So basically, whatever "scene" you feel you fit into, you'll find it there; if you don't fit into a category, then you're okay too since lots of people are just there for the great education and not for the hype. Although it didn't hurt that we had a kick-ass football team that won the Rose Bowl twice while I was there :D ......but I digress.....</p>

<p>However, I did not incourage my DD to apply to the UCs, even though she and her fellow "high achievers" were more or less inscripted to apply by her HS counselor. In her case, she does NOT want a large campus setting where she would remain mostly anonymous to her profs and fellow students. Unfortunately, most of her peers did apply to the UCs simply because of the peer/counselor pressure and not because they are a true fit. Very few of her graduating class were able to look outside of the UC box.</p>

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<p>I came from a HS where everyone goes to small liberal arts colleges... and likewise I expected to follow, although ultimately I decided to go to UC instead. I'm only halfway done with 1st year, but I know I've had opportunities here that would not be possible at small LAC. I have to work harder at getting things but it's more the real world.</p>