UCSB or Berkeley?

This is long but I would truly appreciate all of your guys help :slight_smile:

Alright alright. I know these threads are repetitive and at times monotonous. I know there are plenty of them also and it all comes down to “go to the school you like,” and what not. That’s my problem, I like them equally and for different reasons, or at least I think.

The reason why I say I think is because I visited Berkeley, UCSC, and UC Davis a few weeks ago. I flew up north by myself, so I had the liberty of walking my own path around each of the campuses. (I’m a Junior transfer for Philosophy by the way for 2016 Fall). So I took the tours and walked and explored each, even sat in on philosophy classes at all of them, and I can safely rule out UCSC and UC Davis now, although before I could not.

Berkeley was different though. I couldn’t get enough of the large university feel and the architecture. I loved how it seemed like a portion of New York just sort of picked up from the East coast and plopped over here in California. The surrounding area just seemed so alive (as well as the campus). And to be honest, I didn’t mind the homeless hippies everywhere. It actually sort of fascinated me because of the contrast between a top university with students who ideally want to make a powerful change somewhere in the world (not that they don’t at the other UC’s) and the impoverished free spirits. The food at Berkeley was amazing too, I’m a killer for authentic food (especially Asian).

Okay so I visited two classes, and each of the professors were very open and accepting. The one guy (John Perry) who is a quite renowned Philosopher even called me to the front of his class before he began to introduce me to the students and more specifically to the transfer students who were also Philosophy majors. (This was an upper-div. phil. course). That was impressionable in itself, because even though it was an upper division class, I didn’t expect the “Egotistical-Involved in my own research-Type of Professor” to go out of his way to do something like that. I also thought both he and the lesson he was teaching were very interesting (even though the students said they couldn’t stand him at times and he was quite boring compared to the other professors). Lastly, I’ve always kind of romanticized the idea of studying under top philosophers. It’s not so I can say “Oh yay look at me I studied under this guy,” but more because I feel they’re so severely invested in the study that I would love an idol and mentor of their sort to look up to for inspiration. I see it as gaining first hand knowledge from a guy whose books will one day be studied in a classroom, and I will have learned a dimension of theirs that will one day be inaccessible. Sort of like if I were to study under Ralph Waldo Emerson or Wittgenstein (although it’s arguable that the philosophers at Berkeley are not quite as influential as these guys or whatever).

The one thing that popped out to me most was that after class, the four transfer students in the class that the professor geared my introduction towards came up to me and started asking me questions, and we just talked about interests and what not. Then they invited me to lunched and they talked philosophy. I’ve never been around so many people at once that were so sincerely invested in their area of study that they liked to talk about it in their spare time. I didn’t even witness this at Santa Cruz or Davis. Also, normally when I try to bring up or prolong a conversation on intellectual topics with my Dad, Brother, or friends or coworkers, it is usually cut short and/or they get annoyed when I make a point. When I was having lunch with these guys, I didn’t get that at all. If anything, they just wanted to present their own points and learn from one another without being negatively taken aback from each other. THIS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM EVERYTHING I HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE COMPETITIVE BERKELEY STUDENT. They were kind and curious.

So the main point sort of driving my whole post is a quote I read by Henry David Thoreau, it goes, “How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live.” I am a practicing writer and I want to attend graduate school for creative writing, unless philosophy grabs my interest so much that it pulls me that way for graduate work. I write all of the time anyway, regardless of my studying it or not, and I understand that creative writing does not make one a writer. I will write no matter what, but I want to be among a community of writers with common interests and (at this point) I want to teach creative writing. But as I mentioned, this may change.

So the reason for the quote is this: I have studied very hard in community college to get to where I am now; no matter where I go, I will continue to study hard; if those at Berkeley are really as academically minded as those who I went to lunch with, it gives me the impression that they as well as others will be less likely to go and experience some parties, bars, clubs, concerts, etc. I think it can be generally agreed upon that unless one is in Greek Life at Berkeley, there will be more parties at Santa Barbara. So basically, what I mean by the quote is that I believe there will be a greater series of stories and characters that I will experience at UCSB that will help me better understand the human condition, rather than just learning about these things from afar in books and experiencing them less often. It is not that partying is what the human experience is all about, but I believe the wild and adventurous side of the students at UCSB offers more material for writing. And I know this may sound selfish about choosing a school based on the material for one’s writing, but it goes beyond this. It is more because I myself am not a social person and I have not grown much in this area; I would benefit from improving my communication skills even without writing in mind, and to learn first hand people’s desires and fears and interests and their crazy wisdom from their stories would expand my understanding of what is possible in the world further than I have myself been exposed to. I feel as if I would benefit greatly from a variety of stimuli versus those who are so determined and focused on one purpose or goal (as those at Berkeley seem to be, although of course that is not to say that there are not plenty of people at UCSB with this focus or determination).

With that being said, if I do decide to go on to graduate school for philosophy, Berkeley in turn makes me a better prospect for grad. school philosophy programs (more so the more prestigious, but because it increases my chances for the more prestigious schools, my options in general will be of a wider variety).

But, if I do plan on pursuing graduate school in creative writing, Berkeley has a bunch of creative writing classes accessible to all, and UCSB does not. The only creative writing courses at UCSB are those in the College of Creative Studies, which, upon instructor approval, can be taken by those outside the college. Although my chances are reduced for being able to take these classes, I am confident enough in my ability as a writer that I don’t believe this will be a major obstacle for me, although surely I could be wrong. But even if I did get into ONE class, I may not get into two or three or four, and so my exposure to creative writing will be more slim. I’m not sure this worries me much though only because grad schools for creative writing probably would not care much if one did not take plenty of creative writing classes as an undergrad; all that they care about is that you can write or that you have promise. It is also generally conceived that it doesn’t matter what one does for their undergrad when changing their direction for graduate school, all that matters is that you have a degree and know why/can explain why you are changing your direction for graduate school.

A little side note- I do feel that my writing can be improved from other areas as well, from departments such as rhetoric/writing studies and religious studies to some degree, so even with or without creative writing courses as an option, I believe I will be taking classes in these disciplines no matter where I go.

Okay, my last concern is the party scene at UCSB. It is both what attracts me and deters me from the school. I am a shy introverted person for the most part, but when I party my mentality changes. Yes, the whole alcohol as a social lubricant thing. I want to experience the wild side and have stories and this and that yes, but I am also concerned about my drinking. Once I start, I usually can’t stop, although I’ve been working on this and I believe I’m making progress. Although drinking and partying (yes, I did mention bars earlier when I mentioned Berkeley) will be available at that school, I would have to go out of my way to access it for the “party feel” than I would at UCSB. I make this note because I rarely go out of my way to drink, I only drink heavily when it is present. I am a drinker of intensity, not frequency. Anyways, the main thing driving this particular concern is that my family has a history of drug addiction and alcohol abuse. My dad is a current alcoholic and user, my brother went through two drug addictions and a short spurt of alcoholism, and my mom passed away from an overdose. And drinking runs in my dads blood, most of his brothers are heavy drinkers his father drank himself… I know t.m.i.; I’m sorry. So I do want to party, that is part of what draws me to the school, but I also do not want to be consumed in it. I would like to say that I have a good sense of control in the face of peer pressure/ alcohol availability, but we would never know until I actually came face to face with the situation on a constant basis.

Thank you guys so much for reading and considering my rant. I truly and sincerely appreciate your taking the time to read this and am looking forward to all of your guys’ insightful feedback.

Do you mind me asking why you ruled davis and santa cruz out?

The last thing I forgot to mention at all is that I have not visited UCSB. This is why “I think” I will like it. I will be visiting it in a month or so give or take and will be saying with a friend from high school.

@SDSU84
I ruled them out because when I spoke with people about Santa Cruz and how they liked it, they all said “It’s pretty chill and the people are cool.” But as I tried to make conversation with them, they were being offish and rude. So in a way, to me at least, they contradicted themselves by saying people were so chill when in fact they weren’t being chill. I didn’t experience this feeling at the other schools. Also, everyone seemed to keep to themselves and no one talked to each other, they were all in their own little worlds so it seemed.

And Davis is less critical. It is more that the philosophy program is more heavily science based and I although I am interested in the philosophy of science, I want more of a broad exposure to other areas. If I choose to focus on taking more philosophy of science classes, I want to be able to choose to do so; I don’t want the choice to sort of be made for me by the nature of the program.

Berrrrrrrrkeley. We can take classes together - and the thai food around campus is pretty great, but there’s a ton of variety overall. And the quality of the philosophy department at Cal is excellent. I have never liked UCSB much, though.

Also, if you like the exterior design of buildings on Cal’s campus, you will love the libraries.

Edit: Greek life aside, the party scene at Cal isn’t entirely dead. People definitely let loose - I’d say partying is more confined to “kickbacks”, but there are plenty of bars around campus, and San Francisco is accessible via BART for clubs and whatnot. I’ll give you a more thorough response when I’m in front of my laptop, because I’ve researched the philosophy departments at both schools (and others) fairly thoroughly.

@goldencub
I heard about the philosophy library, but I didn’t get a chance to visit it. I looked it up on google though and it’s like you’re being placed in the past!
Do you feel like you’ve gotten a broad exposure to all the branches of philosophy? I’m into aesthetics, phil. of lang. and metaphysics. I didn’t see too much of aesthetics though.

@fignewt8694 I don’t go to Berkeley (yet).

There are many libraries. The philosophy library is nice, but I’m a big fan of the reading rooms in Doe Memorial Library, Main Stacks, and the East Asian Library.

UCLA is great for the philosophy of language, but Cal has its offerings in the subject as well. You probably won’t take much at all under the scope of Aesthetics. Metaphysics is big - you’ll get a hearty dose of that with Plato shudders, Aristotle, and others. The theories of Form and Meaning are offered as classes, which sort of fall under the blanket of Metaphysics. There are also offerings for individual philosophers (i.e. Kant, Spinoza, etc.) - the program is very broad, and is an excellent education in philosophy.

@goldencub Haha, one day I’d like to know what you have against Plato. Does it have to do with the forms? He kind of pulls that idea out of thin air with nothing to back it up.

I would definitely go either Berkeley or LA - they have a bigger name internationally and are both really great schools

@Cheolf Plato argues that there is an intermediate between being and non-being, despite non-being being the negation of being, which makes the two a binary inherently. His Forms are a bit far-fetched, too (unless Forms are properties).

Alright, so I read through the post (or, at least, the important parts). For reference, I’m a CC student in the Bay Area, but I’m on Cal’s campus constantly (libraries and whatnot). I also took Philosophy 12A - Intro to Logic at Berkeley last Summer. I also tried to take Philos 25A - Ancient Philosophy at Cal, and went to class for a couple of weeks, talking to the prof and whatnot. So I’m fairly well-acquainted with the environment of Berkeley, the campus, and what certain courses are like (although I know upper-division classes will be much more rigorous/conceptually demanding).

Classes are split into Lecture and Discussion sections, with the former being taught by a professor usually, and the latter being taught by GSIs (Graduate Student Instructors). As I’m sure you can imagine, Berkeley attracts excellent graduate students for philosophy, and all of the GSIs I met were incredibly helpful and kind. Down to earth, as well. I think my lecturer in the Summer class was finishing up his PhD, but he was able to teach the course himself. Anyway, he made jokes constantly (enough to make a 3 hour logic lecture fun), and baked us cookies before the final. Yeah, it was pretty great. The professor for the class I essentially audited (25A) was very forthcoming and receptive, answering questions I had regarding some of the pre-Socratic philosophers’ ideas/arguments. And this is an expert on Aristotle, educated in Germany (I believe), etc. - as you know, Berkeley has good professors. Naturally, many of them are not so kind - I’ve heard horror stories about a few philosophy professors - but they’re generally pretty good, and the GSIs are usually very helpful.

I met a good number of Philosophy majors over the Summer, too. Most of them were fairly kind, intellectually-inclined, etc. - Cal students generally have a very strong desire to learn, think, and do well - or, at least, that’s the impression I get from the school.

Berkeley is insanely competitive, but the philosophy majors I met were all very kind and willing to help each other out. Helping others generally helps oneself improve, too, so there’s that - and the class didn’t have a curve, so there’s no reason to not work together. It’s less of an every-man-for-himself environment than it seems. It is cutthroat, absolutely - you have to work very, very hard to do well - but it’s a good sort of competition. It’s motivating.

Also, I’ve heard wonderful things about the Creative Writing program. There’s a CW minor that’s fairly popular, and it seems as if it would be a good option for you. I’m thinking of pursuing an English minor, personally (the English department is fantastic, apparently).

Plenty of talented writers work for the Daily Cal, as well. I read one column the other week that I found to be beautifully written. I can message it to you if you’re interested.

Lastly, going to UCB likely would not help your grad school prospects at all. It will force you to work harder, though.

UCSB’s philosophy department seems to focus more on public policy, ethics, and political philosophy (I think?) than Berkeley. Berkeley offers a wide assortment of philosophy classes to choose from, though, and likely will give you a stronger education in the subject (although I may just be biased).

UCLA has a fantastic philosophy program as well.

@Cheolf Also, it’s more that he wishes to inject a tripartite structure in everything he can, such that his theory of psychology corresponds in part to his theory of being, and so on. He argues for it poorly, and I disagree with nearly everything he writes. Aristotle isn’t great either, but his arguments are far less wild IMO. Primarily, I think his anthropocentric tendencies are ridiculous. I am an animal lover, though.

@goldencub
Okay great, the philosophy program,its students, professors and GSI’s do seem quite intriguing and well learnt. I appreciate the thoughtful response and yes, I did get that sort of vibe also from the students (as healthily competitive and motivating).

What exactly is the basis of your claim for Berkeley not bettering my chances for grad. school? I know it does not matter for grad. schools in general, but doesn’t it have some bearing on highly ranked philosophy programs?

I noticed that also about UCSB’s program. It seems more ethics based and policy and law. However, somewhere online I did find that UCSB has the 9th ranked General Philosophy program in the nation, although I have not found this label consistently across websites. Not a matter of strength in the department, just a wide exposure to all schools of thought.

I have yet to visit UCLA and will be soon, but I don’t like the heat all too much, and I don’t think I will enjoy the smoggy air and traffic.

Actually, scratch that. Prestige of undergrad is no factor at all for law school. I think they do look favorably upon applicants from schools like Berkeley for grad school, but I’m still fairly sure one’s GPA and GRE scores are more important than the prestige of undergrad; this is to say that prestigious graduate schools will not overlook one’s low GPA because they went to Berkeley. I don’t know how much weight undergrad prestige bears, but I don’t think it’s too large.

It is likely that your grades would be lower at Berkeley than they would be at UCSB, and because GPA is one of the largest factors in one’s graduate school application (for the humanities, at least), the difference in prestige alone likely wouldn’t amount to much. Assuming you got comparable grades at both schools, then perhaps prestige would give you an edge. As I understand this, though, letters of recommendation matter far more than prestige (because UCB and UCSB are both in the UC system - the ranking difference is relatively minor).

UCSB has a good program, and it offers a fairly broad curriculum. Berkeley actually has a decent amount of classes in the Continental realm of philosophy (often covered by the Rhetoric department - the Philosophy department primarily focuses on Analytic thought, as most American universities do).

UCLA has many offerings in logic, theory of language, theory of science, and I believe attracts lecturers from non-Analytic fields occasionally (there’s a Zizek vs. somebody else debate hosted by UCLA on Youtube).

Berkeley does have a reputation of grade deflation. I strongly agree with the assessment of @goldencub .

There’s not really much else I can add without adding my own speculations, which would be of little help.

@Cheolf It seems to be overstated - but the grade averages of Philosophy courses at Berkeley are on par with hardcore STEM majors (i.e. MechE, ChemE, and Philosophy averages are only only ~0.10 grade points higher than CS, EECS, etc.)

Source: http://projects.dailycal.org/grades/

A good article on the subject: http://www.dailycal.org/2015/05/15/grade-deflation/

I don’t think Berkeley has so much of a problem of grade deflation as other schools have a problem of grade inflation - I think something like 60% of Harvard students graduate with honors each year, which is absolutely ridiculous. Generally, public schools give out fewer As than private schools.

@goldencub A very astute observation. I was aware of the advantages of private schools. It’s interesting; in other counties, generally public schools are the top institutions, whereas private schools are usually for those whose grades don’t really cut it. I suppose we have more of a mix here in the states.

Money and privilege certainly have their advantages (I say this as a white upper-middle class male). Also, there are indeed students who come from the worst of circumstances who make it into schools like Harvard. I don’t mean to ignore that. But I think we can generalize the student bodies at Ivy institutions to a somewhat accurate degree (a dangerous endeavor, I know. I’m a risk-taker!).

Sure, students at Harvard are among the best of the best. But to say that there is such a chasm between Berkeley students and Harvard students is the epitome of laughable.

60%… I don’t even know what to say.
8-}

@Cheolf Well yeah - undoubtedly, the Ivies are outstanding academic institutions. They do have ridiculous grade inflation, however. The same is true for Stanfurd. :wink:

It’s a bit of a shame for those who come from schools with fewer high grades handed out, because there’s no real consideration of grade deflation/inflation (for law schools, at least). So it is, though.

@goldencub Yup. My ultimate goal is law school. I was born and raised as a USC diehard. But I’ve already meddled around in college too long as it is. I focused on UC transferable courses (the whole don’t put your eggs in one basket idea).

My father is a USC alum, and they do give somewhat of an advantage to legacies (not that I’d need it, seeing as USC’s standards are generally a bit less than UCLA’s and Berkeley’s, both of which I meet). I didn’t bother applying, though.

But that’s okay. A’s at public institutions are much harder to achieve, but they are still possible. I’ll need to develop the work ethic capable of doing that if I’d like to succeed in law school. Otherwise it’s for naught.

Totally off-topic, but when will you begin studying for the LSAT? I was planning on starting in the summer.