UK Universities

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Again.</p>

<p>I wasn't sure where to post this, but here we go:</p>

<p>Do you think it's worth it for Americans to even apply for British universities? Obviously, if there's the money to attend, yes, but do you believe in the whole 'I'll apply just to see if I can get in' thing? My mom's encouraging me to do that, which I think is ridiculous. </p>

<p>And, if money were not an issue, do you think it'd be worth it for an American to attend a British school that isn't Oxbridge, considering other options in the United States? </p>

<p>And and: good undergraduate history schools in the UK? I'm thinking about it. I just don't if I'd even be able to attend (expensive, innit?), and then why waste the time applying?</p>

<p>And and and: are Oxford & Cambridge super-elitist, as I've read? Are there good non-super-elitist schools?</p>

<p>...This post is massively disjointed. Hm.</p>

2

<p>LOL of all the questions you've posed I can only give a pretty confident answer to the last one. I'd say University of Edinburgh is a great school. Terrific professors, long rich history (400+ years), impressive list of alumni and very happy students. Some ppl decline Oxbridge offers to go there. :) Not to mention you'll be living in a gorgeous town known as Athens of the North. </p>

<p>But I might be biased because my friends there are totally crazy about their school.</p>

3

<p>I've heard a bit about the school. Apparently its undergraduate prospectus smells good....</p>

4

<p>Haha oh man, don't tempt me now. I just sent in the official acceptance letter to UCL!!</p>

5

<p>"And, if money were not an issue, do you think it'd be worth it for an American to attend a British school that isn't Oxbridge, considering other options in the United States? "
The top University of London schools. Also any members of the Russel group (as well as some non-members) although there is generally a gap in reputation/quality between the Oxbridge-London elite and the other top universities (certainly in international reputation).</p>

<p>"And and and: are Oxford & Cambridge super-elitist, as I've read? Are there good non-super-elitist schools?"
Elitist meaning what? Meaning they only take the best students? Yes of course. Find a top university which isnt.</p>

<p>Another poster has mentioned Edinburgh which would be a fine choice. Warwick is often named(within the UK) as a top 5 university although it has no comparable history or international reputation to the golden triangle or G5 universities. Bristol,Durham and St.Andrews are all quite pretty and known as common destinations (along with Edinburgh) for Oxbridge rejects and public schoolkids. If impressive alumni is a factor then you would have to choose from Oxford,Cambridge,London (UCL,LSE,Imperial,Kings and perhaps SOAS especially), Edinburgh and Glasgow which have huge lists of famous ex students/faculty, many stretching back over centuries.</p>

1 Like
6

<p>Speaking of alumni, Edinburgh has quite a good list to boast about: Hume, Sir Walter Scott, Thomas Carlyle, Robert Louise Stevenson, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.</p>

<p>Durham should be a good place for history, according to the Times table which ranks it second after Cambridge and before Oxford. York and LSE are other considerations.</p>

7

<p>poubelle, the answer is no. It is not worth any American applying to UK universities. As someone who studies in a British school, where the majoirty of students attend UK universities, I can tell you British colleges are not even comparable to thier US counterparts, even the likes of Oxford and Cambridge. </p>

<p>Their resources, faculty and student body are far inferior to the top US colleges and the rigid academic system usually doesn't suit American educated students. </p>

<p>To cite a personal example, I got into Balliol college Oxford and didn't even consider going there because I was applying to the US. After receiving all my US decisions, again, Oxford was not even a consideration. To tell you the truth, I would more likely go to NYU than to Oxford.</p>

8

<p>Inuendo</p>

<p>Are you British, or an American studying in a British school? </p>

<p>Where is your objective evidence for your sweeping assertion that the top UK universities are inferior to the top US ones? I suggest you break your evidence down into "resources", explaining how it is relevant to the quality of undergraduate education, "faculty", and "student body". Then we can properly assess whether there is anything of value in your views.</p>

<p>Your "personal example" is meaningless. You applied to Oxford, even though you never wanted to go there, and consider that your odd behaviour is somehow proof of your assertions. </p>

<p>If this is an example of how you present and support your arguments, it's just as well you didn't go to Balliol; you would have been ripped to shreds in your first tutorial.</p>

9

<p>"If this is an example of how you present and support your arguments, it's just as well you didn't go to Balliol; you would have been ripped to shreds in your first tutorial."</p>

<p>An excellent refutation of a very poor post.</p>

10

<p>It depends on what you want. If you want to experience a new contry, really far from home, then go. Some ranking table suggest that UK universities are declining, I agree. We virtually do not find the prestige of Aberdeen, Durham... On the other hand, we all know about the raising of Singaporean, Chinese and Indian universities but believe me, consider what you want and what are your capabilities rather than just reputation</p>

11

<p>oldspc, I am Indian. I have studied in a British school throughout my life, and the majority of my friends are British. I say this so that you understand that my opinion is not American biased in any way. </p>

<p>Secondly, I wasn't presenting an argument but just providing the OP with anecdote. If you see the question I responded to, it asked whether it made sense for an American to go to a UK university.</p>

<p>If you would like specific examples and a structured argument, then let me provide you with one. You ask to give evidence of the lack of resources I alluded to in my post and how this affects an undergraduate education. </p>

<p>In December 2004 Cambridge announced that it would no longer run its Architecture courses and shut down its architecture department due to the lack of monetary resources available and, the administrationÂ’s belief that it was a weak department. Would you expect, or ever observe, a top US university stopping courses due to a lack of funding, especially one as large as Architecture. </p>

<p>As a result of this decision, undergraduates who whish to pursue architecture can no longer apply to Cambridge, thereby stifling their options for an education in this particular field.</p>

<p>At the same time, US universities such as Harvard are expanding the courses they are offering to undergraduates, keeping certain classes running even if only a handful of students wish to attend. Penn, for example, hired a Moshi-Dagomba (an African tribal language) professor on the request of just 1 student who wanted to learn the language so that he could speak it on an archaeological visit to Ghana. These are the kind of resources that US students have access to and UK universities dream of providing.</p>

<p>The resource constraints of less prestigious UK universities are well known and continuously documented. A vast number of examples can be cited, but I am sure, being knowledgeable on the state of higher education in Great Britain, you will agree to this claim.</p>

<p>Lastly, regarding "my odd behavior being proof of my assertions," I think you might need to read my post again, slowly. My personal example was used to give the OP an idea of the quality of education she has available in the US and not to disparage Oxford in any way. I totally agree with your statement that my actions are by no means everybody's actions. In fact, I am part of an extremely small minority of students who attended a British curriculum school and did not enroll at Oxbridge after being accepted.</p>

<p>Sources: </p>

<p><a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/universitiesincrisis/story/0,12028,1362233,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://education.guardian.co.uk/universitiesincrisis/story/0,12028,1362233,00.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/universitiesincrisis/story/0,12028,1357357,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://education.guardian.co.uk/universitiesincrisis/story/0,12028,1357357,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

12

<p>Inuendo</p>

<p>"The resource constraints of less prestigious UK universities are well known and continuously documented." </p>

<p>I doubt if there is anyone outside the Department for Education and Employment who believes that UK universities are funded to the extent that they should be. However, that does not necessarily mean that their resources are "far inferior" to those in the States. The most common comparison is of endowments, which would only be valid if government grants were not the main source of income for UK universities. Comparison of US college endowments and UK government grants is mixing up capital and revenue, apples and pears.</p>

<p>However, I am afraid that two examples do not make an argument, especially your two which are sui generis. More to the point, although greater resources may increase opportunity, they do not guarantee quality of education. Cambridge's decision to shut the Architecture department may be sad, but it also draws attention to the university's determination to preserve overall standards. Do wealthy US schools shut departments which are academically weak? I don't know. Was the instruction in Moshe-Dagomba any good? </p>

<p>Many US students study in Oxford for a semester or two, often being exposed to tutorials with dons from the colleges. There are a surprising number of students' testimonials that can be found on the net. And a recurring theme is that they were exposed to an style, intensity and quality of education that was new to them. It was nothing to do with resources. Stanford is no slouch, so views from their programme will do:
<a href="http://osp.stanford.edu/program/oxford/student/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://osp.stanford.edu/program/oxford/student/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am still waiting for any evidence that the "faculty and student body are far inferior to the top US colleges". </p>

<p>"My personal example was used to give the OP an idea of the quality of education she has available in the US and not to disparage Oxford in any way."</p>

<p>I have read your post at various speeds, but there is still nothing in your personal example that offers anything of empirical value in comparing the quality of UK/US higher education. All it indicates is that, for unexplained reasons, you have a deep-seated and long-lasting prejudice against UK universities. And don't you think that your repeated references to Oxford as a place you wouldn't touch with a bargepole are even slightly disparaging to Oxford?</p>

<p>"I totally agree with your statement that my actions are by no means everybody's actions."</p>

<p>Actually I didn't make any statement remotely like that. What I believe is odd is to make an application to a university when you have predetermined that you would never want to go there.</p>

13

<p>I'm planning to apply to Richmond, The American International University in 2007 with a major in International Relations. My best friend will be joining in 2008.</p>

14

<p>I agree with Inuendo...</p>

<p>I have am from London and I have lived in the UK my whole life. I believe that US universities are a cut above their UK counterparts; this however is a personal opinion. The top universities in the UK have much smaller endowments in comparison to the top universities in America. With these financial constraints I believe quality of UK universities lag behind American ones. (Education standards do not improve as much)</p>

<p>Within the UK I got into:</p>

<p>LSE
UCL
York
Manchester
Edinburgh
Leeds</p>

<p>All for eco.</p>

<p>Although these are all amazing universities here in the UK, I have chosen to attend Tufts University in the states... Over there I believe I will obtain a very high quality of education, much more so than here in the UK...</p>

15

<p>What are your opinions on St. Andrews and the University of Aberdeen? These are the schools with the highest American enrollment and the Scottish system mimics the American system more closely than the English system I've been told. Anybody?</p>

16

<p>Good choice, Tufts is a university of very high standard. PM Blair raised the tuition fee because he was afraid British education system would become second class, I myself don't believe only raising the money is sufficient.</p>

17

<p>Ya, UK universities are really rubbish. I visited some of them last summer and they were really bad, really depressing. Most of them are just huge concrete buildings that are drab and run down and the insides are really poorly maintained. The dorms were also really pathetic and none of them guaranteed housing after the first year. I stayed with my friend at UCL one night and he had rats scurrying around his room!!</p>

<p>Also, when I sat in on some of the classes they were huge. Like 400-500 people all in a big lecture hall. It was really impersonal and nobody seemed interested in what the lecturer was saying. It was really boring, so IÂ’m not surprised. I was told that this is quite common and, unlike in US universities, students donÂ’t get smaller sessions with profs or TAs so they basically have to study the course from a book. No personal time with profs either. </p>

<p>IÂ’d stick in the US any day.</p>

18

<p>“Comparison of US college endowments and UK government grants is mixing up capital and revenue, apples and pears,” is completely out of place as I did not once compare US college endowments to UK grants. I deliberately used the word “resources,” as this encompasses the capacity to spend, be it from grants or other means. </p>

<p>In addition, your point regarding government funding of UK universities only serves to validate my argument. How can public sector funded universities such as those in the UK compete with private sector universities such as in the US? Clearly, UK universities will suffer from scarce funding due to competing uses for the governmentÂ’s resources and have tight budgetary restrictions imposed upon them. This will hinder any administrationÂ’s progress and prevent them from expanding the university at a rate comparable to top global institutions. No doubt, there are plenty of public universities in the US as well, but apart from those in California, none suffer the kind of budgetary restrictions that are found in Britain. </p>

<p>Your reference to the opinions of Stanford university students who have studied abroad is completely inappropriate and irrelevant. What do you expect a university that encourages students to study abroad to post on one of its websites? Do you think that they would publish a write up on how miserable a time students had whilst studying abroad? Please pick less biased sources. </p>

<p>Regarding evidence on the quality of the student body at UK and US universities, it is very difficult to find information that can be easily compared. Academic quality could be compared objectively but, unfortunately, SAT I scores cannot be equated with A-Level grades nor can class ranks since the majority of British Curriculum schools do not rank students. However, if the selectivity of schools is looked at as some measure of the quality of the institution, since the more selective schools tend to be better schools, then a significant difference between US and UK universities can be seen. </p>

<p>The average acceptance rate over the past three years for Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE), one of the most competitive courses at Oxford has been 24.8%, for Mathematics 37.5% and Modern Languages 41.8%. It is as high as 56.4% for a course like Chemistry, for which, again, Oxford is renowned within the UK. </p>

<p>The very best US universities had admission acceptance rates of between 8-12% in 2003, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Universities such as Lehigh, George Washington and University Of Maryland – College Park have acceptance rates of around 40%, which is on par with many courses at Oxford. Clearly, the difference in competitiveness and selectivity between UK and US universities is enormous. </p>

<p>I’m sure you agree that the more selective an institution, the better the quality of its student body, in general, therefore, the data above suggests that US universities have superior student body’s to their UK counterparts. In addition, the whole UK admissions process is very one-dimensional with nearly all the consideration being put on academic ability, in fact Oxford and Cambridge even state that academic potential is their only criteria for admissions in their prospectuses. The UCAS form is the perfect example, with no scope being provided for extra curricula activities or a candidate to express his/her individuality in a unique way. Instead, prospective admits are required to submit a 47 line “Personal Statement,” outlining why they are the perfect match for a particular course, which is then submitted to every university, regardless. </p>

<p>Lastly, my comment referring to faculty was to the quality of teaching available at UK universities. A previous poster has already cited a first hand experience of the poor student to faculty ratios at the majority of UK colleges and the lack of “one-on-one” time with professors. Unfortunately, data regarding these areas is not readily available for UK universities so I cannot make a direct comparison. If some data could be found, it would be appreciated. Nevertheless, I doubt any UK university has a student to faculty ratio of less than 10:1, whilst 34 US universities do, excluding Liberal Arts Colleges. If most students are learning “the course from a book,” as a previous poster suggested, then the quality of education in the UK is seriously lacking. </p>

<p>Oldspc, since both of your previous posts have been either direct criticisms about me or about something that I have posted, perhaps in your next post you could outline some reasons why you think that UK universities are at least comparable or, if we are dreaming, superior to similar US institutions. I think the absence of such points from your argument is an indication that there are none worth mentioning.</p>

19

<p>"What are your opinions on St. Andrews and the University of Aberdeen? These are the schools with the highest American enrollment and the Scottish system mimics the American system more closely than the English system I've been told. Anybody?"</p>

<p>I know 1 American at St. Andrew's this year and shes is having a blast. She loves it so much and is just having a lot of fun. She's meeting tons of new people from all around the world and she travels to Europe a lot since it's so much closer and cheaper to get to than from the US. </p>

<p>I also have another American friend whose going to go to U. of Aberdeen next year. </p>

<p>The Scottish system is a lot closer to the American one, closer than the English one. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

20

<p>inuendo: you cited a fair number of facts, but your arguments are flawed in so many ways that I can't even be bothered to type them all out here. It is hard for me to believe the 'superiority' of American univerisites, going by your so-called 'logic' of 'arguments.</p>

<p>rage666: Until you have actually studied a smiliar course in both UK and US universities, I doubt very much your claim in believing the 'superiority' of American universities. You realise that getting conditional offers from 6 UK universities and one American university does not prove your point at all, don't you?</p>

<p>I have actually read a number of reports that suggest that American universities are already starting to lose their 'edge' on the world-front. I can't be bothered to cite the actual sources of these reports here, but suffice it to say IMHO those who think "American universities are far superior" are living in the deep well, not realising what is really happening world-wide.</p>