UK Universities

<p>"What are your opinions on St. Andrews and the University of Aberdeen? These are the schools with the highest American enrollment and the Scottish system mimics the American system more closely than the English system I've been told. Anybody?"</p>

<p>St.Andrews is probably the most overrated university in history and within Scotland is distinctly third best to the traditional double powerhouse axis of Edinburgh-Glasgow which makes up the most common destination of the best students. Aberdeen is hugely disadvantaged by its relatively remote location but is a good enough university and i have many friends there who greatly enjoy it.</p>

<p>jkh, if you can't "be bothered," to post anything, then why did you post this in the first place?</p>

<p>Obviously your one of those people who has nothing to say but just has to comment for the sake of it. You stated a few opinions, it seems of your own, without backing them up in any way and shoved in a few idioms to make yourself sound erudite. </p>

<p>Your definitely not.</p>

<p>FYI - it is "you are" and not "your" (as in the sentence 'your definitely not'). </p>

<p>IMHO, not bothering to write out arguments here is better than writing a load of flawed arguments. </p>

<p>'nuff said.</p>

<p>'nuff said'
Yes I think so jkh.. if your not going to contribute useful anything apart from make corrections in grammar. Then I don't think any further input is required form you in regard to this argument.. this is not English class</p>

<p>I am not responsible for any of these following comments. I did not make them. FYI, ie if you are really interested in reading these articles.</p>

<p>Excerpt from <a href="http://www.popecenter.org/issues/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.popecenter.org/issues/&lt;/a>
"American higher education is often said to be the envy of the world, but when it comes to academic standards, it may be more of the laughingstock of the world. Rather than demanding work and thought that really makes students "stretch," many courses have been so watered down, with professors demanding so little of students, that they have little or no intellectual value. College credits should only be awarded for work and learning that "</p>

<p>"Boundless: Grading wars"
<a href="http://www.boundless.org/2000/features/a0000400.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boundless.org/2000/features/a0000400.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Disney University and the Politics of Guilt"
<a href="http://www.americanoutlook.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article_detail&id=1496%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.americanoutlook.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article_detail&id=1496&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Declining standards in Higher Education"
<a href="http://www.cybercollege.com/plume8.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cybercollege.com/plume8.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Too late for remediation"
<a href="http://www.prism-magazine.org/nov04/last_word.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.prism-magazine.org/nov04/last_word.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Studies show U.S. losing edge in innovation"
<a href="http://new.nique.net/issues/2005-04-15/focus/3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://new.nique.net/issues/2005-04-15/focus/3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Educators warns U.S. losing competitive edge in higher learning"
<a href="http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/WF981001/epf413.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/WF981001/epf413.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"U.S. slips in attracting world's best students"
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/21/national/21global.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=3ee2e6351e33d817&ex=1261285200&partner=rssuserland%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/21/national/21global.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=3ee2e6351e33d817&ex=1261285200&partner=rssuserland&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think it is not relevant to dabate about this here. Some Chinese or Indian universities are not ranked amongst the best but still you can find very bright students. If you were Bill Gates or Newton then it would be worthy to compare between Cambridge and Harvard.</p>

<p>The UN released something that showed the quality of K-12 education ranked in the world. The US was one of the lowest in the First World. We were way down there, behund Poland, I can't remember which number exactly, but we were past 35 or 40 I remember. The top few went to Asian one's and the next like....25 went to European countries.</p>

<p>Ya, but we are not discussing K-12, we are discussing undergraduate education for which the US is undoubtedly the best in the world, by far. </p>

<p>jkh, you are providing examples from public watchdogs whose responsibility it is to continually question social issues on behalf of the public interest. If you were to read British publications you would find as many, if not more, criticisms of British higher education. In addition, the problems facing British universities are far more serious than those cited in the articles you alluded to.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Hm, that's one way to look at it, but in some parts of the world such as Asia, many advocate going to the UK for undergradraduate studies and then heading for the US for graduate school. Personally, I subscribe to this as well because if you look at the classes taught in both American and British unviersities, you tend to find that classes are more in depth and the workload heavier in the UK. This is not to put down the US undergrad education-- for some courses one is advised to head straight for the US, such as Cornell's Hotel and Wharton's Business. But due to the liberal arts nature of the US education where the typical undergrad is taught to learn in a very broad manner, the more specialised and degree-focussed type of education that the UK provides is thought to provide a more solid academic foundation that could be built upon with more "practical" lessons offered for grad studies in the States.</p>

<p>This thread has scared me. I'm coming down to the last couple of days to chose between NYU and St Andrews. I picked St Andrews, but havent sent my letters to either school. Since you guys seem to know a lot about both school systems, which school do you think is better? (I live in the US)</p>

<p>definitely NYU! which school btw?</p>

<p>CAS, ok now consider this. NYU is $43K a year (I got about $15K in scolarships but thats still a lot) St Andrews is only around $10K a year (i'm a british citizen). NYU means i'll have so much debt by the time I graduate its ridiculous and that doesnt include grad school!! St Andrews leaves me out of debt (my parents can afford it) and it leaves me with money for grad school which I want to do in the US. Now, which would you pick (4 years at St Andrews is less $$$ than one year at NYU)</p>

<p>As a scot i would go for NYU.</p>

<p>
[quote]
NYU means i'll have so much debt by the time I graduate its ridiculous and that doesnt include grad school!! St Andrews leaves me out of debt (my parents can afford it) and it leaves me with money for grad school which I want to do in the US. Now, which would you pick (4 years at St Andrews is less $$$ than one year at NYU)

[/quote]
Just by that reasoning alone, I'd say I go with St. Andrews. I read a published (American) study yesterday about how students who went to "elite" schools for undergraduate studies did not on the whole earn a different salary compared to others who went to "lesser schools". I think we can safely assume the elite schools they were referring to were the Ivies and the traditionally strong ones like MIT, Caltech etc. </p>

<p>Now NYU is a good school and I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself whereever you go, but in terms of helping you get ahead for grad school I doubt it will barely make a difference. Put it in a frivolous way, if St. Andrews is good enough for royalty, it will be good for most of us LOL :p. You will probably still have many chances to live in big (and expensive!!) cities to NY, so why not enjoy the more relaxed life in St. Andrews? To be honest, I almost turned down UCL for Edinburgh becase that 'lil Scottish capital is so beautiful... :o </p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!!</p>

<p>inuendo: Let's face it - every education system in the world today is not without flaws or criticisms. And just for your record, I'm not a die-hard fan of the British education system as you might have imagined me to be.</p>

<p>But to say that "American universities are far superior" (quoting you in your previous post), one only has to look at the article where a Harvard professor moans about declining standards in American undergraduate education. Grades inflation is real, and is still happening. So how can one be sure an A grade student from Harvard is academically as good as, or better, or in your case "far superior", than an A grade student from Oxford, Beijing, or IIT? The point is - those articles/reports are highlighting the key issues facing American universities today. Are they ahead of their leage, maintaining standards, or declining academically in the world-wide battle in higher education? What is being done about it?</p>

<p>There is absolutely nothing wrong in advocating what you believe to be the best education system for you. My only disagreement is when I see posters putting down/rubbishing other systems.</p>

<p>Dear English 05,
If I was you, I would defintely choose St Andrews. Firstable the university is good enough and its reputation is certainly recognised in the US. Secondly you are looking foward to joining a grad school then, it is more important that you achieve top grades rather than where are you studying. If you can get rid of financial worries, you should be able to do well but if still you can carry the financial burden and thrive in NYU, then just choose a university that you like.</p>

<p>it seems theres too much turmoil at the moment. lets admit it, the US is going downhill with 9/11, and the economic problems that come with it. american enrollment at UK universities is rising, and although the system there is rigid, you can still get the better bang for your buck...imo.</p>

<p>"American enrollment in UK universities is rising." This comment is a fallacy and a skewed remark. If you compare the proportion of Americans who enroll at UK universities with the proportion of British students who enroll in America then the figures are not even comparable. An extremely small, almost negligible, percentage of students from America go to UK universities, especially for undergrad, whilst a far greater proportion, still small in absolute terms, of British students leave for US universities. You only have to compare the international student body structure of a US university with a UK university to find evidence for this point. </p>

<p>This data suggests that British students feel they have a greater opportunity in US universities than they do at home and, assuming that these students have near perfect information, this is implicit evidence that US universities are, in fact, superior to their UK counterparts. Why else would a student such as English05 even be considering NYU with such financial disparity?</p>

<p><em>pause</em> I think. Now is a good time. To make a quick exit. :exit stage right:</p>

<p>"This data suggests that British students feel they have a greater opportunity in US universities than they do at home and, assuming that these students have near perfect information, this is implicit evidence that US universities are, in fact, superior to their UK counterparts."</p>

<p>No! We (I'm British, living in England) are in exactly the same position as Americans considering the UK! It's just the other way around, and British students are asking all the same questions about the US. </p>

<p>A few things:
1) The UK government (well, Tony Blair had the 'idea') wants to get 50% of young people to go to university after leaving school. This is a damn stupid idea (why do most people need a degree!?!?!). As a result, there's more and more courses, and many of them are of lower and lower standard. The decent Universities keep their standard, of course, but there's a lot of students who get accepted into a University with something like EE or DD at A-level, and it really isn't worth their while, they'd be better off getting a job. In order to get people in to uni, the government keeps making A-level exams easier -- which has gone so far that the best places (Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE, +others, in no particular order) are asking for AAA or more results, and for some courses setting their own, additional exams. When people in the UK complain about "lowering standards" in education, this is what they're complaing about.</p>

<p>2) UK population: 58 million. USA population: 250 million or something like that. So there's more decent colleges in the USA, but I think it's fair to say there's still the same proportion of top-rated places in both. </p>

<p>3) International reputation: Well, before one of my friends started looking, I only really knew about Harvard and MIT in the USA. How well known are other places outside of the USA? I don't know. How well known are UK places outside of the UK? Well, I can't answer that.</p>

<p>4) Money: I can't make a comparison, since I pay a lot less because I'm British. But there's not much money available, generally everyone pays the whole lot. UK students get grants if they're poor (well, if their parents are poor). But check to see. Some companies sponser students, I have a friend studying Physics at Warwick, and a scientific instument company is giving him £3000 a year (or something like that), in return he works for them for a year (and gets paid, obviously) when he graduates. </p>

<p>4a) For the reason why so few UK students go to the USA to study, look at the costs: all UK students get a student loan (if they want it) which is about £3000 a year, and an excellent rate (only a fraction over the rate of inflation), and you don't pay it back until you get a job and start earning more than £18000 a year or something like that. Tuition fees are £3000 or so a year if you're a UK citizen, and if you're poor you don't pay even that. Then there's the travel and everything. For a UK person, uni in the USA is a huge amount of money.</p>

<p>5) Accomodation: Yes, most UK places only give you accomodation for the first year. But, I'm getting to the end of my first year and I think I'm ready to rent my own place (with a couple of friends). Don't let it worry you, the University helps you find somewhere to live, and having you own house/flat is another freedom. Almost everyone chooses to live with one or more friends, and most places students live are near to the university anyway, and near to other students.
I've heard all the horror-stories with the rats and so on. Do you really think they'd let people live in building like that? No. The UK is health-and-safety crazy at the moment, you fridge will be more of a worry ("how old is that cheese?").</p>

<p>6) Concrete: sure, there's places that were built in the 60s/70s/80s. I visited Warwick, the whole thing is white concrete. It's a great place -- it's got an excellent reputation in the UK, academically, everyone's heard of it (and the Royal Family have nothing to do with it) but if you're looking for towers, steeples and crenellations, look elsewhere! Three friends are there though, they don't mind. I'm a scientist though, we tend to care less :-).</p>

<p>7) Not concrete: I applied to Cambridge, but I was rejected. I know a few people there though, one is studying Classics (mad, mad, mad!) and loves it. She loves having the 'formal hall' in gowns and so on, the huge libraries, the ancient architecture, and the atmosphere of the place. </p>

<p>8) Lectures/learning: I've read somewhere on this thread about UK places having 600 people in a lecture theatre -- that's not the case for anywhere I know, but look into it. Everywhere I know about (which is mostly from friends I have, and here, so: Imperial, Warwick, Cambridge, Durham) has lectures to between 20 to about 250 people. I'm at Imperial College London, studying Mathematics and Computer Science, my maths lectures are to about 250 people, the computing ones to about 120, and a few M&CS ones to 23. We have tutorials too, in Computing this is a group of 6, in Maths a group of 20 with two tutors. Cambridge I know has a similar setup for lectures, but tutorials (I think they have a special name for them) will be in groups of 2 or 3 with a professor, likewise for Oxford. Everywhere varies, this is something to find out. More important than the number in a lecture is the number in the tutorials, and how often they are (and labs, for science).</p>

<p>9) Breadth of study: a Mathematics degree in the UK will probably be 100% maths, for either 3 or 4 years. Same for most other degrees. Personally, this suits me fine, I'd hate to have to do more arty stuff now I'm at uni. Most places (AFAIK) have options to do odd courses from another subject (or a language), sometimes it's compulsory, sometimes not. </p>

<p>General advice: if you can visit a place, do so! If possible, go when there's an open day, and go again on another day to see what the place is really like. </p>

<p>Choose weather you want to live in a big city (like London, or Manchester, or Birmingham, or Edinburgh), a smaller city/town (Durham, Leicester, Sheffield, etc) or in the country (Warwick, can't think of other places). Some universities are spread around a place (like Cambridge, and many in London), some are all on a campus, either within a city or outside of it (Warwick is a few miles from a town/city, Loughborough is (I think) all in the same few blocks in a town). Personally, I wanted to live in a city, and London's the biggest and I'm here now and I love it, for others this isn't right for them.</p>

<p>Whereever you go you'll love it, don't worry too much. But don't go somewhere just because your parents want you to (worst thing you can do). </p>

<p>And ask on <a href="http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.thestudentroom.co.uk&lt;/a> too (and get completely the opposite bias of opinion from on here!).</p>