Umich vs. UVa

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>MerryXmas, such rankings & comparisons of departments are based on research not teaching. Personally, I chose UVa because I wanted great teachers. </p>

<p>Hoedown, I don't think I was overstating things. It is quite known that large research universities emphasize the notion of "publish or perish." According to the book "Choosing the Right College: The Whole Truth About America's Top Schools":</p>

<p>"The University of Michigan is a research institution, and as one student says, 'teaching always comes second after getting published.' This student charges that although professors dutifully hold office hours and teach the obligatory lecture courses, 'in reality, they largely couldn't care less about the classes they're teaching.' Another students says that the quality of instruction, from both faculty members and graduate students instructors is uneven. 'They know what they are talking about, but do not know how to present it in class.' Students also warn of difficulties getting into upper-level courses, which often fill up quickly. 'You practically have to beg, borrow, and steal to get into any 400-level classes,' says one student. Lectures are generally given in the German style: professors read [to] them and students take notes, often in one of the world's largest lecture halls, Chemistry 1800."</p>

<p>It goes on to say...</p>

<p>"An article in the conservative Michigan Review charges that UM has 3 types of courses: (1) legitimate courses in which professors are there to teach, and you are there to learn, (2) courses that faculty members teach because they have to, though they would prefer to be doing research, and (3) courses in which professors ar primarily there to politically indoctrinate their students...at Michigan there seems to be a disproportinate number of type-2 and type-3 classes.</p>

<p>Again, I know that Michigan is a great school with excellent departments, but for undergraduate education, the most important aspects are not high rankings because the professors are good researchers and publishers, instead those aspects should be strong teaching and excellent student-teacher interaction and engagement. Remember that we go to college to learn, not to play second fiddle to our professors' research. </p>

<p>Whatever the case, I think Sportsmaniac will know which school will be right for him/her when s/he visits them.</p>

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<p>I would agree that the departmental rankings are of the quality of the research faculty.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Hoedown, I don't think I was overstating things. It is quite known that large research universities emphasize the notion of "publish or perish." According to the book "Choosing the Right College: The Whole Truth About America's Top Schools"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think you misunderstand my objections to what you said (understandable, since I work here at U-M and probably seem like a big booster). It's not just what you're implying about Michigan, but what you're implying you know about all research universities save the one you attended.</p>

<p>One book that focuses on the publish-or-perish phenomenon is not going to adequately capture the reality of the student experience at a research university. Nor does it qualify its reader to comment on the frequency at which students are 'dismissed' by the professors who are teaching them at one research university vs. another (or on any research-oriented campus). You're naming a pretty specific behavior which, to my knowledge, has not been measured in a way that qualifies someone, anyone, to say how often it happens, or where. Do many faculty at research universities prefer research to teaching? Yes, and we've got data that proves it. Do some of them teach undergraduates regardless? Yes, data that shows that, too. Do some of tthat subset "dismiss" a student when he approaches them? Undoubtedly. How great that problem is, is that rare, or common? Who can tell? It's wrong to assume that just because some professors at research universities prefer research more, it naturally follows that there is a substantial problem with rudeness and dismissiveness between those teaching undergrad classes and the hapless enrollees who take the courses. </p>

<p>I went to a small liberal arts college so I don't, in fact, need to "remember that we go to college to learn." Come on, do you think anyone in this forum needs such tutelage? LOL </p>

<p>I actually believe, in general, the principles you are upholding. I chose, for my own self, an experience that would guarantee I had professors who were dedicated to undergraduate education. But I object to what I believe is an overstatement, not based on fact or research or adequate comparative personal experience.</p>

<p>If you merely said "UVa has a liberal-arts-college feel to it, and things I've read and heard suggest they're better at this than U-M," we wouldn't even be having this argument. Hell, I'd take your word for it, it matches what I've heard.</p>

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<p>Globalist, you cannot put too much faith on that report. Michigan is as committed to undergraduate education as any research university...and yes, that includes UVA. I have known many students who transfered to and from those two schools and their comments were pretty even, the two schools have different atmospheres but equal educations. UVA, like Michigan, has many large classes, professors who care primarily about research, students who feel they deserve better etc... But both schools have a significant number of professors who enjoy teaching and students who do not expect to be spoon fed. Overall, I think that a student will be equallysatisfied with a Michigan educationas with a UVA education...provided the fit is right.</p>

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<p>Hoedown,</p>

<p>I think you misread the posting in question on 3.28.05. I never said that Michigan professors dismiss their students. I said that I don't remember having a professor that dismissed me at UVa. In that posting, I don't refer to UMich at all. When I mentioned large research universities, that was a blanket reference to some research-centric institutions, which incidentally includes among others MIT, a private school that's known (or stereotyped) for its emphasis on research over teaching undergrads. If you read some old CC postings, you will come upon anecdotes of students being dismissed by their professors.</p>

<p>As for the 3.29.05 posting, my reference to the book was not about dismissiveness but more about the emphasis on research over teaching.</p>

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<p>MerryXmas, I think the ranking report you provided is like 10 years old - since it was published in 1995? Correct?</p>