UMICH vs. UVA

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Well, I lived in Pakistan for a year, Michigan for 10 years, and Virginia for 6 years. Both of these universities are considered excellent academically. </p>

<p>Greek life is much more involved and up beat at UVA, and academically UVA has a stronger reputation nationwide (Whoever said DC residents and employees consider UM more prestigious has either never been there or coincidentally talked to some Mich alums there). The campuses depend on personal taste. If you are willing to take the bus to a few classes and like a bigger campus, DEFINITELY gotta give the edge to Ann Arbor in terms of campus environment. </p>

<p>However, if you like a smaller, walk friendly campus, UVA will not disappoint. The campus in Charlottesville is extremely scenic, with plenty to do. I have five relatives that work in DC, and while I’m choosing between these schools this year, they all recommend (as well as their colleagues) choosing University of Virginia in a “no brainer” decision.</p>

<p>An important thing to look at is the graduate acceptance rate which is slightly higher at University of Virginia (yes even in Medicine, law, AND business). So if you are interested in graduate school, UVA has a SLIGHT edge.</p>

<p>From a historic perspective, this is no contest. University of Virginia has such a strong historical and traditional background. (I’m not saying UM doesn’t, but Thomas Jefferson founded the college). As for sports, Michigan has a better football and basketball program (although this year wasn’t very good for football). UVA has a much better tennis, lacrosse, track team.</p>

<p>Now remember, you are on the University of Michigan forum, so you will received some pointed responses if you favor UVA in any way. However, remember to post this on the UVA forum as well, so you can get some balance. I’ve seen both universities, toured them several times, experienced classes at both of them, and personally I just think University of Virginia is better overall. However, you really can’t go wrong with either choice! Both are excellent schools and are considered public ivies.</p>

62

<p>“An important thing to look at is the graduate acceptance rate which is slightly higher at University of Virginia (yes even in Medicine, law, AND business). So if you are interested in graduate school, UVA has a SLIGHT edge”</p>

<p>obviously. Have you ever heard of diminishing marginal return?</p>

<p>If med school A has 100 spots for each school</p>

<p>100 apply from UVA, they can take 100 from UVA resulting at 100%
150 apply from michigan (i pick 150 because 2:3 is about the right ratio of population), they can only take 100 because of quota, which would result at 66%.
But from the med school’s point of view, the “return” from taking the 100th kid from Michigan is the same as taking the 100th kid from UVA, but the incentive to take the 105th kid is much less. Schools dont want to crowd their program with a lot of kids from the same school.</p>

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<p>Bearcats
 I’ve heard of the diminishing marginal return, but medical schools don’t have quotas. The fact of the matter is a larger percentage of people that apply get into graduate schools in almost every type of graduate school from the University of Virginia. </p>

<p>The population is larger at Michigan, yes, but the number of applicants to med school especially, are very close (much closer than the ratio of population difference).</p>

64

<p>Also, in terms of prestige hogging, no one knows prestige better than strat powerhouse Mckinsey, BCG, Bain (generally known as MBB)</p>

<p>[Undergraduate</a> Recruiting at Vault’s Top Six Consulting Firms: Vault Management and Strategy Consulting Career Information](<a href=“http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223]Undergraduate”>http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223)</p>

<p>These are all not only for the business schools either. All of them have presentations on north campus according to their schedule.</p>

<p>Michigan is a target for Mckinsey, BCG and Bain (3/3)</p>

<p>UVA is a target for BCG and Bain (2/3)</p>

<p>That’s right. Michigan is a core school for the most prestige thirsty consulting firm on the planet, Big McK; placing them within the elite list of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, UPenn, MIT and Stanford.
“McKinsey maintains working relationships with dozens of campus career centers, but this year the firm is actively recruiting at only a handful of them. These schools are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, the University of Pennsylvania, MIT, Stanford and the University of Michigan.”</p>

<p>UVA is not. </p>

<p>That’s not just for Ross either. There’s a Ross Presentation and North campus presentation (for engineering majors). Nothing for UVA except for an application deadline. (according to mckay’s career page)</p>

65

<p>Bearcats, do you realize that Ross is almost unanimously ranked lower than UVA’s business school?</p>

<p>Also, please don’t insult my intelligence by asking rhetorical, pointed questions. I have lived in Michigan for the majority of my life, and I absolutely love it. However, I’m giving the poster a different perspective. I truly believe (and many will agree with me, maybe not so much on this forum, but nationally) that the University of Virginia will give you more opportunities after college and a better academic experience. It matches, if not beats the prestige of Michigan, and simply has much more of a tradition rich history. That’s not to say it’s by a large margin, because both universities are excellent, but to say that everyone with a sound mind should choose Michigan is ridiculous. On the east coast, a large majority of graduates as well as professors will tell you that UVA is considered better academically.</p>

66

<p>“Bearcats, do you realize that Ross is almost unanimously ranked lower than UVA’s business school?”</p>

<p>by unanimous you mean business week? lol.
you realize Ross was the no.1 BBA program 2 years ago, so now McIntyre magically overtake Ross because of what business week says? The fact that McIntyre is placed in front of wharton makes the whole ranking a complete joke already.</p>

<p>[The</a> Top Undergraduate Business Programs](<a href=“http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/undergrad_bschool_2009/?chan=magazine+channel_special+report]The”>http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/undergrad_bschool_2009/?chan=magazine+channel_special+report)</p>

<p>Also, compare median starting salary, Ross grads are tied with MIT as no.2 in starting salary at 60000. McIntyre grads start at 58000. You might think 2000 is insignificant, you are probably not a stats junkie like me. Assuming a standard deviation of 3000 which is a reasonable estimate (probably an overestimation which works to YOUR advantage)</p>

<p>Ross Class size = 250
McIntyre Class size = 130</p>

<p>Minitab yields</p>

<p>Two-Sample T-Test and CI </p>

<p>Sample N Mean StDev SE Mean
1 250 60000 3000 190
2 130 58000 3000 263</p>

<p>Difference = mu (1) - mu (2)
Estimate for difference: 2000
95% CI for difference: (1361, 2639)
T-Test of difference = 0 (vs not =): T-Value = 6.17 P-Value = 0.000 DF = 261</p>

<p>That’s right. P-value is 0. That means there is 0% probability that the $2000 starting salary difference between Ross and McIntyre happened by random. There are underlying factors that give more starting salary to Ross grads than McIntyre grads.</p>

<p>Haha speaking of statistics, the Bank of American Interviewer DRILLED me with ANOVA and 2^k factorial design questions today
I understand ANOVA, but what the hell does 2^k have to do with banking?</p>

67

<p>ohhhhh so it’s a joke because Michigan is ranked below UVA?? I’m sorry but if you won’t admit that UVA is better or equal in at least SOME of the popular academic majors, you are fooling yourself. Let’s also look at the overall value of colleges — </p>

<p>Best Value Public University – University of Virginia #1, UM (not in top 40)
Best Value Overall- University of Virginia #16 – UM (Not in top 50)
College rankings (Based on Graduate Acceptance and starting salary)
Michigan - 4th
UVA - 2nd</p>

<p>Most Beautiful campus -
UVA- 5th
Michigan- Not in the top 20</p>

<p>USN, PR</p>

<p>I’m not sure why you are so defensive, but both schools are academically about equal (and ranking wise, UVA has a bit of an edge)
so to definitively say that Michigan is better is the real joke.</p>

68

<p>lol you can pull random rankings, so can I. Fact is ranking doesnt mean crap. I can come up with my own methodologies and come up with my ranking.</p>

<p>USNWR BEST UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD RANKING
[World’s</a> Best Colleges and Universities: Top 200 - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-colleges/2008/11/20/worlds-best-colleges-and-universities-top-200.html]World’s”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-colleges/2008/11/20/worlds-best-colleges-and-universities-top-200.html)</p>

<p>Michigan: 18th
UVA 96th
(OH HOLY CRAP MICHIGAN is 78 spots ahead of UVA
Michigan must be a lot better according to the way you worship rankings)</p>

<p>SJT ranking
<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008_A(EN).htm[/url]”>http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008_A(EN).htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Michigan 21th
UVA 95th</p>

<p>Grad school placement</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Michigan 30th
UVA 33rd</p>

<p>Forbes top college sports town:</p>

<p><a href=“In Depth: Top College Sports Towns”>In Depth: Top College Sports Towns;

<p>MIchigan: 1st
UVA : 9th</p>

<p>So far, I have provided links, statistical analysis, facts, recruiting target school lists to back up my argument. What are you backing up your crap by? Who is to judge which ranking is right and which ranking is wrong? Target school lists and starting salary are much better FACTUAL OBJECTIVE judgements of the prestige of the school</p>

69

<p>amen Bearcats, amen</p>

70

<p>"amen Bearcats, amen "</p>

<p>lol cant believe i performed a t-test for a forum -_- I dont even do that for my lab reports</p>

71

<p>Here are some links to back up my “crap.” I think we agree that both of these universities are similar academically. My point here is that in the academics category UVA is certainly not inferior to Michigan, so it isn’t a good reason to choose Michigan over UVA. UVA is better for certain majors, and Michigan is better for certain majors. So much of it has to do with preference.</p>

<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-best-values]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-best-values)</p>

<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-top-public]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-top-public)</p>

<p>[National</a> Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-search]National”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-search)</p>

<p>[Undergraduate</a> Business Programs - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Bloomberg Businessweek - Bloomberg)</p>

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<p>Just so you know, do you know that this is the first/second year that UVA jumped michigan in USNWR and mcintyre jumped ross in Bweek??</p>

<p>“An important thing to look at is the graduate acceptance rate which is slightly higher at University of Virginia (yes even in Medicine, law, AND business). So if you are interested in graduate school, UVA has a SLIGHT edge.”
where’s your proof for that? Because I have proof of the contrary</p>

<p>“University of Virginia will give you more opportunities after college and a better academic experience.”
Proof?</p>

<p>"On the east coast, a large majority of graduates as well as professors will tell you that UVA is considered better academically. "
Proof? certainly not wall street</p>

<p>“Bearcats, do you realize that Ross is almost unanimously ranked lower than UVA’s business school?”
Proof? Unanimous?
As I said, do you know that 2 years ago Ross ranked no.1, which is also a joke, no b-school beats wharton. They switch them around all the time or they wont sell anymore magazines</p>

<p>Also, you do realize, rankings are not justifiable proofs? Any john doe can come up with his own methodology and rank colleges however they want. </p>

<p>Actual proofs are empirical facts like
Grad school acceptance rate: which I provided that proves Michigan has an edge on UVA</p>

<p>Starting salary: which I provided with a significance of difference paired-t test</p>

<p>Recruiter’s target list: which I provided</p>

<p>But all in all, there’s not much difference between Michigan and UVA. You can have your opinion, and I can have mine. But dont come here and say UVA is better than Michigan because certain certain ranking says so. It is not. UVA is better than Michigan in your mind, and Michigan is better than UVA in my mind, that’s perfectly fine. anyway I am out for now. back to programming</p>

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<p>That’s what I’m saying
 I’m giving a different perspective. College choice IS subjective, and I’m giving my reasons as to why I think it’s a better college. I agree that they are similar in terms of academics, but many posters seem to believe that Michigan has a clear edge when it comes to academics. That is where I am disagreeing. Also, if you have read the above posts, I stated that so much of my opinion is based on what people have told me. That is not necessarily a stat that can be linked, but to me it matters what those who truly want me to succeed think (family, counselors, close college profs).</p>

<p>And you are contradicting yourself. Statistics are as easily manipulated as the lists based on them, so all you have proven in that statement is that your own T test proved nothing. Lists aren’t everything, but I think they do help when it comes to objectively ranking schools to SOME extent. These aren’t your average Joe’s, these are USN, PR, and BW, that have at least a little bit of knowledge concerning colleges.</p>

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<p>are you a bloody idiot? did you just say t-test prove nothing? Do you understand what I did? I took the average salary posted by each school, used a reasonable standard deviation and given sample size to formulate a t-test. You cannot manipulate a freaking t-test; it’s been around for years. You can only invalidate the t-test based on the satisfaction of underlying assumptions (randomness, large enough sample, blah blah blah) , which in this case is negligible because t is so big > 6 which means however you take the non-fitting assumption into account you’ll still test positive, unless you have a sample size of like 1 or something.</p>

<p>Methodology however are easily manipulated. It is based on what statistics you choose, but not statistics itself. And if you seriously think they arent your average joe, explain this.
For USNWR national ranking for 2009, they have UVA at 23 and Michigan at 26.
For their own world ranking for 2009, they have Michigan at 18 and UVA at 96. wow that makes perfect sense. How can you rank higher in the world ranking when you are in a pool of more universities, and have the rankings completely flip flop? OHH because they used different methodology. Is this the objectivity you are talking about? Like them choosing their own methodology criteria?</p>

<p>How bout BW? So Ross went from the best business school to the 6th business school to the 4th business school within a year’s time, really? that makes perfect sense.</p>

<p>and you didnt address the fact that you lied about the grad school admissions rate.
<a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/p...ege_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/p...ege_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Don’t you mean n>6, not t?</p>

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<p>no. i mean t >6 , the t is so strong the assumptions (unless blatantly unfit) should not matter</p>

<p>n1 = 250 n2 = 130 btw</p>

<p>n is sample size</p>

<p>Difference = mu (1) - mu (2)
Estimate for difference: 2000
95% CI for difference: (1361, 2639)
T-Test of difference = 0 (vs not =): T-Value = 6.17 P-Value = 0.000 DF = 261</p>

77

<p>Ahmedkhokar, I think most of us can agree that both UVa and Michigan are excellent, historic, universities. Your claims that somehow, UVa is more historic, has a better overall national reputation, has a better Business school and enjoys better graduate placement are all incorrect. </p>

<p>First of all, Michigan is as old as UVa, has been considered a top university for a longer time and has had a bigger impact both nationally and internationally than UVa. As such, I don’t understand how you can say that UVa is more historic. Yes, UVa was founded by Ben Franklin, so it does have a more famous founder than Michigan. But beyond that, I would say that Michigan and UVa both have had a long and distinguished history.</p>

<p>I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that UVa has a better national reputation. It doesn’t. I happen to have lived in DC for 2 years. My sisters lived in DC for over 5 years each. My father and mother lived in DC for close to a decade. Needless to say, my family and I know DC very well. Some of our closest family friends work for major DC institutions, such as the World Bank and the IMF. In DC, even back in the 60s, Michigan has a very strong reputation, easily on par with UVa. Perhaps not among high schoolers, but definitely in Government and in corporate circles. I would agree that UVa enjoys a better reputation in most of the East Coast (except for NYC and DC, where Michigan’s reputation is easily as strong and UVa’s) and in the Southeast, but in most other areas of the country, Michigan has a stronger reputation than UVa. I have yet to see a single reputation poll that proves otherwise. So when you include all the areas of the nation, I would estimate that Michigan and UVa have roughly equal reputations as undergraduate institutions.</p>

<p>You claim that UVa’s business school is almost unanimously considered better than Michigan’s. That is a very misleading and incorrect statement. Most Business school rankings actually rank Michigan higher than UVa.According to Businessweek, McIntire is indeed ranked slightly higher. Then again, would you really trust a ranking that has Wharton #3, or BYU at #6 or MIT at #9, or Stern at #15? The USNWR ranking, which isn’t much better mind you, ranks Michigan #3 and UVa #6. On average, Ross and McIntire are ranked roughly the same </p>

<p>Graduate school placement is excellent from both schools, so I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that UVa has better placement rates. If you have actual statistical proof, please share it with us. Unfortunately, I do not have such statistical data, except for Law school admissions. Michigan places students into Law schools with equal success as Cornell, Cal, Georgetown and Penn. But that is a very limited and narrow factor. I would assume that a university’s peer assessment score is a good indicator of how well it is respected by graduate school admissions committees. If that’s the case, Michigan and UVa are pretty much equal. But if you have actual statistical evidence that UVa has a significant advantage in graduate school placement, please share it with us.</p>

78

<p>Ahmedkhokar,
You make wild claims that you can’t back up with facts. For example:</p>

<p>

Are you claiming that UVa grads have an advantage in being admitted to top ranked programs in:</p>

<p>Social Sciences
Humanities
Sciences
Engineering
Health
Education</p>

<p>Can you provide any proof of your claim? OTOH, Michigan has top ranked programs across all of these disciplines, thus Michigan grads have an inherent advantage of being admitted to a top ranked graduate program in their fields.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Can you name a second source besides BW that ranks McIntire ahead of Ross? We already know that USNWR ranks Ross higher. One-to-one is hardly “almost unanimous”.</p>

79

<p>Yeah, nevermind, it’s been a while since I’ve done statistics. I didn’t think about what t actually was, and it makes sense now that I do.</p>

80

<p>well yea since all we have is sample data but not population data we can only use t-test not z-test</p>