UNC vs UVA

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
21

<p>vc08</p>

<p>Please re read what I said in an earlier post about the two schools. I think I know both of them a little better than you do. The OP was asking for a comparison and I gave him one based on time spent at both schools, the experience of several friends' children at UVA and that of our son and his friends at UNC. Because I see the two schools as academic equals my comments were aimed at describing the social and political climate which is what happens after classes end and is ultimately what shapes an undergrad experience. </p>

<p>I have in fact spent time at UVA doing post grad work as well as attending numerous week long management seminars there. I actually turned down undergrad admission there almost forty years ago when an OOS admit was considerably harder than it is now. Incidentally I was turned down at UNC; there were no wait lists then. If I had an axe to grind, logically it should be against UNC. No one can knock the atmosphere at UVA. I can remember having my breath taken away when I first walked on the Lawn it is an extraordinarily beautiful school and very steeped in tradition.</p>

<p>I have ALWAYS been an enormous fan of UVA and am in no way saying it is not a prestigious school nor am I knocking the academic quality of the school. All I am saying is that among academics, which is who really counts, UNC and UVA are considered peer schools and in many departments UNC is in fact the more highly regarded. Period.</p>

<p>UVA carries the mantle of being an old money Ivy safety from the fifties and sixties (I know I am in the latter group) which helped to put it on the radar more quickly for those outside the NE or mid Atlantic states while UNC became more widely recognized (outside the south) a little later. Attending either school is nothing to be ashamed of and can open many doors.</p>

<p>I know the history and pedigree of the two schools very well. The Jefferson scholarship at UVA was patterned after the Morehead at UNC which preceded it by a number of years. UVA actually hired the associate director of the Morehead to be the first Jefferson director.</p>

<p>And for the record, challenging barrons about academics is not even something I would do. Unless I am mistaken barrons has been intimately involved in collegiate academics for many years.</p>

<p>Oh and by the way, John Edwards taught and may still teach at UNC.</p>

<p>This is supposed to be a forum to help people make difficult decisions. Let's try to keep it that way.</p>

22

<p>vc08--UVa itself has realized it has serious shortcomings in the sciences, engineering, and math as the report I linked clearly indicates. Did you read the report??</p>

<p>Here are a few quotes</p>

<p>'To achieve this goal UVA needs to face the fact that, despite its stellar national rankings
for undergraduate education, the graduate research programs in the College of Liberal
Arts and Sciences (CLAS), the School of Medicine (SOM), and the School of
Engineering and Applied Sciences (SEAS) generally do not rank as high nationally and
internationally as the university's leadership and faculty desire, nor do they rank
favorably with other institutions deemed to be peers. UVA’s Board of Visitors and
Administration have announced as their goal elevating UVA’s quality as a research
university and improving the external perception of that quality. The relevant faculty
support this goal. This report assesses how UVA is positioned to achieve this goal and
steps it can take to realize this objective."</p>

<p>A Mixed Standing in the Rankings. While UVA is ranked number 24 by U.S. News &
World Report (USNRW)3, mostly due to its outstanding undergraduate program, UVA
ranks only number 47 for FY 2005 in the key research indicator, namely the NSF ranking
of federal research expenditures4, and does not rank in the top 100 on the Academic
Ranking of World Universities (ARWU) 2006.5 If one looks at the important leading
American universities, it is exceptional that UVA ranks so highly for its undergraduate
program and so modestly as a research university.
The reason for this dichotomy between education and research attainment seems to be the
fact that most science and engineering departments at UVA have remained static or have
actually decreased in faculty size since 1990. We are told that this may have been due to
wrong judgments, to State funding crises and/or bias of some earlier administrators in
favor of humanities rather than science and engineering."</p>

<p>"Recovering from Stagnation: Unless the science departments of CLAS achieve
significantly improved rankings, UVA cannot realize its goal of attaining national
standing as a research university. Some of the issues discussed as university-wide at the
end of this report have special relevance to CLAS.
The recent period of reduced and flat budgets and hiring freezes hurt the science
departments at UVA, some more than others. In several cases, departments feel they are
"playing catch-up" and request the resources and faculty lines to regain the sizes they
previously had. We are persuaded that in all cases, there are good strategic arguments
being made based on new scientific directions and current strengths to justify requests for
additional positions. Likewise, departments that fared better during the period of extreme
fiscal constraint also see faculty growth as being essential to retaining or improving their
current national rankings. In both categories, growth in research-active faculty is being
requested. Such growth, if adequate in number, funded and managed well, is probably
the single most important step that can be taken to improve the research standing of
UVA's CLAS science departments.</p>

<p>Issue: Departments such as Physics, Math, and Biology have remained
static or have not grown in faculty size since 1990 over a period of time
when federal research awards increased. Most leading universities took
advantage of funding opportunities at NSF, NIH, DOE, NASA and other
agencies over this period. This enabled growth in faculty size in leading
competing universities. Laboratories were built with borrowed funds and
amortized from federal overhead payments. Now UVA has to play catchup,
when government funding is relatively static.
Recommendation: This was a major error in judgment. The Washington
Advisory Group supports UVA’s decision to make the necessary
investments to become a respectable research university. This will involve
a major initiative (described elsewhere) of recruiting research competent
faculty. An important goal is to increase the size of these departments to
the median level of those top 20 or so departments in the country of
comparable size to UVA.</p>

23

<p>
[Quote]
I actually turned down undergrad admission there almost forty years ago when an OOS admit was considerably harder than it is now.

[/Quote]
Highly doubt that. I'm guessing OOS admission then didn't virtually require a 1400 M/V SAT and 4.3 GPA, assuming UVA was like every other university in the country. </p>

<p>Your comment directly knocked its academic reputation, by claiming those who "tout" its academic reputation must be pulling that opinion from the unjustifiable USNWR rankings (which I myself have an issue with; I'd rank UVA in the top-20, and Berkeley in the top-15. But that's besides the point). If you didn't mean for it to come across that way, then fine. But for someone as smart and educated as you claim to be, I don't believe for a second that that statement doesn't knock the school. Maybe it was unintentional, but it is written nonetheless.</p>

<p>I know how it feels to be compared to a "better school." As a student at UCLA, outsiders are constantly comparing us to the "more worthy" Berkeley. Saying that certain departments are weak, certain professors aren't good enough, etc. I was admitted to more "prestigious" universities, but I'm proud to say that I go to a school where the focus really is on your personal best. My peers were admitted to Stanford, Harvard, Duke, etc. The only way I know that is by directly asking them. Otherwise, it never comes up. We just don't care. </p>

<p>I'd been off CC for about 8 months (god that sounds like a drug lol), and when I got back on I actually realized that most people on here disgust me. Parents, 40 years removed from their own college experience, whip out stats and advice as if they're the Dean of Admission at Harvard, or the editor of the Princeton Review. A 2200 is considered a "bad" SAT score. UVA is now the little brother to UNC apparently, something that I guess changed in the last 8 months. USC engineering is considered comparable to MIT. When I step away from my computer at school, I feel relieved to find that there actually is a real world, and there are sane people living in it. The pressure parents and adults put on this generation is monstrous. The fact that there are so many adults lurking the forums is proof of this. Making someone whip out stats to prove UNC's worth over UVA isn't "helping," eadad, it's going overboard. Let the kid decide whether they like UVA or UNC better. UVA is generally more well-known academically on the west coast. And that's not my opinion, that's the opinion of CEOs, admissions interviewers for Ivy League schools, etc., that I talked to while deciding between the two (of which I obviously ended up attending neither). In their mind, UNC=basketball, good D-1 school; UVA=prestigious university. Do I personally think they're equal? You bet (so save yourselves the time and don't search for miniscule statistics or journal passages). I find UVA to be stronger in the social sciences and humanities, and UNC to be stronger in the sciences. But not everyone feels that way. And, believe it or not, job interviewers are NOT going to look at meeting minutes from UVA to see how many millions of dollars the bio department needs to raise to build a new facility so they can equal UNC. They see your grades, your ECs and your degree. And then they see you. I'm certain that UNC and UVA have both garnered enough international and national respect that anyone graduating with a degree from those universities will be faced with good job prospects and a successful future. They're both great schools. Rankings don't decide that, the individual student does. I know Mississippi Valley State grads who've been more successful than UNC alums; I know UNC alums who've done more with their life than Harvard ones.</p>

<p>
[Quote]
UVa itself has realized it has serious shortcomings in the sciences, engineering, and math

[/Quote]
Sure. So do Yale, Columbia and Princeton when compared to Berkeley, MIT and CalTech. Want to enlighten me on the shortcomings of their reputation?</p>

<p>That is all I have to say. I think UNC is a wonderful school, as is UVA. I'd love to attend either for grad school. I just think it's unfair to "help" a prospective student by bombarding them with not only statistics, but now PDF reports (God help us) of information conveying only very slight differences between universities. To the prospective student, I say think Seuss! “You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own.
And you know what you know. You are the guy who'll decide where to go.” :)</p>

24

<p>My daughter considered both UNC and UVA and concurred with skateboarder. To her the two schools were interchangeable in all regards-academics,campus,social vibe.The exception was that Charlottesville is in the middle of nowhere and UNC is in the heart of research triangle park.She did not apply to UVA and got in UNC as an OOS.</p>

25

<p>People are spending two hundred thousand dollars to attend a school such as UVa OOS. Maybe if they are considering being a science or engineering major they would care to know something REAL about the place and not based on the uninformed opinions of people like yourself or the vast majority of fellow high schoolers, "counselors", or even US News. We of a certain age all know in the long run college is of fleeting importance but if you are about to drop 200 large on a school you should at least know what's under the hood--sometimes it's a V-12 and sometimes it's just a 4 banger.</p>

<p>UVa has planned on spending BILLIONS to correct some of these problems--if it were not a real problem to the people who know the place best do you think they would be making such a huge commitment to improvement in that area?? I really don't expect CEOs or fellow country-clubbers to know jack about colleges beyond a certain vague image and that's fine. It's not their job. But as we have recently seen--even grads of the best colleges can screw-up in monumental ways. I'm just looking out for people to get what they pay for while in college. And it has to be more than hanging out at Foxfield in a tie and jacket getting wasted.</p>

26

<p>We visited UNC last week for the tour and session. I got the distinct feeling that UNC cares greatly that you are community service oriented and that can make a difference even if your scores are weaker. I've notice the kids who have been accepted from our area in the last year or two are heavy into helping the world. </p>

<p>I don't remember that same vibe last fall when visiting UVA. UNC/Chapel Hill seemed prettier with nice houses surrounding the university. Don't remember any residential area near the campus at UVa.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
UVA is probably ever-so-slightly more renowned academically

[/quote]

USNWR
UNC, UVA
Biology 26, 42
Chemistry 16, 50
Computer Science 20, 29
Economics 28, 27
English 19, 12
History 13, 19
Mathematics 28, 40
Physics 36, 36
Political Science 13, 37
Psychology 22, 28
Sociology 4, 38</p>

<p>UNC comes out ahead in 8 of the 10 fields (the 11th is tied) and is behind by only one spot in a 9th.</p>

<p>Albeit old and outdated, the NRC rankings had UNC coming in at #24 (all nonzero scores) and #22 (all scores). UVA placed #28 and #25, respectively. </p>

<p>The regrettable use of rankings aside, I wholeheartedly agree with the crux of vc08's post. A student could do extremely well at either university. Academics will not be what sets one of them apart from the other.

[quote]
I'm certain that UNC and UVA have both garnered enough international and national respect that anyone graduating with a degree from those universities will be faced with good job prospects and a successful future. They're both great schools. Rankings don't decide that, the individual student does. I know Mississippi Valley State grads who've been more successful than UNC alums; I know UNC alums who've done more with their life than Harvard ones.

[/quote]
</p>

28

<p>^^I believe those are graduate school rankings...my argument was about undergrad (I don't recall USNWR ranking undergrad programs...if they do, can you post the link? Not for this comparison, but just so I can check out how various departments at my own school match up). </p>

<p>Thanks :)</p>

29

<p>I have to say I side with Barrons here. Maybe because I suspect we are in the same age range? :) A lot of UVA's reputation is overblown. And it feeds on itself. Nothing against UVA. My H is a graduate and S will probably apply. But we are IS so it's a good deal. I certainly wouldn't pay the OOS fee. S will probably prefer Vtech anyway because he is into the Sciences. UVA is great for the Humanities.</p>

30

<p>Bitter bitter bitter…why does it hurt so much to be rejected by UVA? All these people trashing on UVA for personal reasons…c’mon!</p>

31

<p>Wahoomb, you are a bit defensive aren’t you? Maybe the truth hurts?</p>

32

<p>Who was rejected by UVA?</p>

33

<p>Interesting thread to read. Has there been any progress made at UVA regarding an improvement in their research standings or the need for more faculty/full funding in some of the sciences? The link barrons provided was printed in 2007. </p>

<p>What that study does reveal to me though, is a validation of what many Virginia high schoolers think: if you are smart, into the humanities or business you go to UVA. If you are smart, into the sciences, engineering, etc., look elsewhere for stronger programs (so as to have the potential for undergrad research).</p>