<p>any thoughts? I know this is a popular question.</p>
<p>Depends what you are looking for. Duke is the highest ranked out of those and the most known. UNC is the best value, IMO since it is highly respected at a low cost (especially in-state). Wake Forest is more expensive than UNC but has a smaller student body if that's what you are really interested in. Vanderbilt, I don't know too much about other than the fact that it is private and not very diverse (could be a misconception).</p>
<p>All four colleges have different atmospheres, so if you want to decide between them, you would have to actually visit the campus to get a real feel for it and to see where you would fit the best. For me, personally, it would go down to UNC and Duke since I have been to both campuses many times and really gotten to like the atmosphere.</p>
<p>Big difference is public University vs. private university....all are great schools. Duke and unc probably very different atmospheres although both great schools. I would look at my personality more than anything else (assuming money is not an issue) what kind of students would I fit with best....am I instate or out of state, etc.</p>
<p>leetx: I think that Cubsfan made some excellent points. These schools are all very different in feel and in location. WF and Duke are fairly isolated from their towns. Vanderbilt is in a great city, though not sure how accessible Nashville is to undergradutes. UNC is the only one that is really centered in a typical college town, which may or may not be important to you.</p>
<p>They are all excellent universities academically; the private ones are obviously smaller, with WF being the smallest. WF has a reputation for active grade deflation and is often referred to as "Work Forest." Though it is academically stellar, it is also 50% Greek; Duke is about 40% Greek, so with these two schools, your social life will revolve around the Greek scene-- much moreso than at UNC, which is about 16% Greek. I'm not sure about Vanderbilt. Not saying that's a positive or negative-- just something to consider. </p>
<p>Again, I would be sure and visit each one. They all have wonderful strengths and beautiful campuses! If you're considering a school like WF, too, you might want to also take a look at Davidson.</p>
<p>I'll just add that much has been made about in-state vs out-of-state on this board. This is really the first year I've ever seen that attitude depicted here. A shame, really, because that attitude tends to create an unnecessary division among students. Hopefully, not many of them are even reading this board.</p>
<p>A lot of students really like UNC because of its size and its diversity, on all levels. Geographic diversity (the whole in-state vs out-of-state brouhaha recently created here) is not something that really impacts students on a daily basis. I think you'd be hard-pressed to know who is "in-state" and who is "out-of-state" if you were on-campus, without asking. </p>
<p>While UNC is ~81% in-state students, NC has experienced so much growth in the past decade, that you'd be hard-pressed to find a native North Carolinian there. The most students probably come from the Charlotte and Wake County areas (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), the two areas that have seen the most growth. Most of these kids are from all over and have moved around quite a bit. I don't think they define themselves, or others, by the state in which they reside.</p>
<p>Good luck! Again, try to visit each of these campuses.</p>
<p>Let me clarify, the only reason i brought up instate vs. out of state is the monetary investment in all four schools.....like i said if money is not an issue disregard that factor or if you are o/s tuition may be very close (although I think Vandy & Duke are closer to 50k a year.) ....if on the other hand you are an instate student for Carolina, the tuition is very low in comparison and you still get that world class education with a great reputation--without the baggage of loans. ANother factor to consider is what area or field you are interested in.....UNC has a top notch business, journalism and public health programs (among other areas....)</p>
<p>OP don't let Altmom discount the fact that UNC is 81% in-state. as a student i must say that this will hugely affect your experience here. it's the difference between knowing 100s of people when you first come here and not knowing a soul. IMO it's a pretty huge hurdle especially as a transfer student. as a freshmen i'm sure it won't be nearly as bad because many people still want to branch out at that point right after being stuffed in high school with the same people for four years. funny how quickly they lose this inclination and go back to the same old thing. this all should be a big consideration despite what Altmom claims. i still like it here, however, eventhough i know three people so far. the anonymity is nice. i just don't want you to be misled.</p>
<p>UNC is definitely the least greek school out of all of those you mentioned. the others are all a third or more greek.</p>
<p>UNC is also the cheapest given any consideration, oos or in-state.</p>
<p>Okay...correct me if I'm wrong...but UNC has more than 15000 undergrads right? And, on average, a typical NC h.s. school sends what...maybe 2 or 3 dozen kids to UNC? So even in-state kids are gonna have to work really hard to find their former h.s. classmates at UNC...the proverbial needle in the haystack so to speak.</p>
<p>I think waaaay too much is being made of this instate/oos thing, honestly. Yes...about 80% of UNC is in-state, but for pete's sake, they all didn't go to the SAME high school. And as jack has pointed out in previous threads, the Triangle and Charlotte and other major cities are full of transplants from all over the US and overseas. So you aren't even really getting Native North Carolinians in those instate numbers. If your scratch the surface a little, you will find much more geographic diversity than the whole instate vs. oos cliche would otherwise indicate.</p>
<p>But if the idea of not having a social safety net is so terrifying to some, by all means go with your h.s. buddies to the closest possible college so you can run home every weekend and hang out there. Sorry if that sounds snippy...but I just can't believe anyone wouldn't be absolutely thrilled at the idea of venturing out into a new and exciting environment.</p>
<p>I recommend some of you check out the parent cafe and read some of citygirlsmom's sage advice about the 'fear of being alone'. It's good stuff.</p>
<p>I second ldmom and jack, as an actual in state student here.</p>
<p>I came to this school knowing about ten kids from my high school, and a lot from other high schools in my area. How many friends from home do I hang out with? One girl who just so happened to ride my bus in middle school. Everyone else - my roomie, the girls on my hall, people in clubs, people I've met at parties and in the cafeteria, they are all random! I haven't even SEEN the kids from my high school more than twice or so, and I haven't hung out with them once since I've gotten here. From what I've seen, these first few weeks, who you become friends with is way more determined by your proximity here than proximity in the country. I'm so worried that all these prospective OOS students are gonna see these threads and freak out. What you're reading about is an experience of the minority. All of my OOS friends have really loved it, a lot of them are really excited to get to know us in staters, and the same can be said of us. I have met a few OOS kids who assume that because I'm from Greensboro I'm not as interesting, but then I show them my super duper personality and win them over. I'm mostly joking about that last part, but you get my point, right?</p>
<p>Excellent points, cloying and ldmom. ^ Actually, there are currently around 17,000 undergraduates. So even if one's high school sends a slew of kids there every year, one would still have to work fairly hard to locate his or her former classmates. </p>
<p>I do think that ldmom's suggestion about learning to be comfortable with being alone is a life skill that will always serve you well, too. This idea that you have to make best friends almost instantly, never be alone, and be scheduled every minute of every [weekend] day, seems odd to me and also puts a lot of pressure on one, I would think.</p>
<p>All of these school have good freshmen retention rates, so I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of students are happy at all of these schools. Every school will have a few students transfer away. Even Harvard loses a few students every year.</p>
<p>FWIW, though, the official greek percentage at Wake Forest is 42%. I always cringe when I see that number inflated. I went to Wake, never rushed a fraternity, and was plenty busy and happy. </p>
<p>I also think grade deflation at Wake Forest is overhyped. The average GPA in the fall of 2006 at Wake Forest was 3.11. The overall undergraduate GPA at UNC in the fall of 2006 was 3.09. I found both those figures on the schools' websites. Wake Forest students might work (forest) harder for their 3.11 average, but I don't have any real evidence for that claim either way . . .</p>
<p>I think the grade deflation issue at both UNC and WF is real but impacts those studying the "hard' sciences (chem, bio, physics) more than those in a pure liberal arts curriculum. The science classes at both schools have very strictly enforced grading curves that limit the number of As given in a class. At UNC with its +/- system this also impacts the number of A- given in a class.</p>
<p>There are non-science departments at both schools that use a grading curve and professors within many departments who make achieving an A difficult if not impossible, but the strict curve used by the "hard" sciences at both schools is what has led to the overall connotation of grade deflation.</p>
<p>Demon Deacon: I actually picked up that 50% Greek from an article on the WFU website. That may have been incorrect, but the point remains that even 42% (your figure) is vastly different from the approximate 16% at UNC. I can imagine that the social scene at WF might revolve more about the Greek scene than it would at UNC. Again, commenting on the Greek scene is not a positive or a negative, but certainly a consideration for a prospective student on some of the differences among all these schools mentioned above.
<a href="http://ogb.wfu.edu/07/index.php?/ee/e_article/farewell_to_the_forest/%5B/url%5D">http://ogb.wfu.edu/07/index.php?/ee/e_article/farewell_to_the_forest/</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Greek Life. With about 50 percent of students involved in Greek life, chances are you’ll stumble upon a sorority sister or frat brother in your travels in the Real World.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
Not Duke, by any means. 15% of men join frats, and 22% of women join sororities.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/quickfacts.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/quickfacts.html</a></p>
<p> [quote=african34] UNC is also the cheapest given any consideration, oos or in-state.
Again, I strongly disagree. Duke is an extremely wealthy school that's quite generous with financial and merit aid, especially for in-state students like the OP. Duke ended up being MUCH cheaper for me than Chapel Hill or NC State!</p>
<p>Jack brought up Davidson. This was an excellent suggestion, especially since it's one of only three schools (Princeton and Amherst being the others) that eliminated loans.</p>
<p>
True. On the other hand, plenty of in-state students do form cliques. I have a couple dozen friends at Carolina, most of whom hang out and even room with each other (known each other since middle school). I'm not saying that students <em>only</em> hang out with high school friends, or that all (or even most) students form cliques, but it's only fair to point out that many do. In any case, it's not a problem for the in-state OP. </p>
<p>Honestly, the four schools are pretty different. Since you're in-state, I highly suggest visiting each, staying overnight if possible. </p>
<p>Duke- Duke is a great size. It's large enough to have majors and courses that can interest anyone, but courses are small. My largest course had 80 students, most of the rest had 15-20 students, and my smallest had 4 students. I've been able to work one-on-one with experts in their fields. For example, I'm currently setting up a project with the curator at the Nasher Museum and the head of the Classics department that would allow me to set up an exhibit of Duke's Egyptian antiquities. These things are very common here, and the ability to get actively involved has drastically increased with the founding of DukeEngage.</p>
<p><a href="http://dukeengage.duke.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://dukeengage.duke.edu/</a></p>
<p>Freshmen are housed on East Campus, which provides an awesome setting for making friends. East Campus has its own library, dining hall, gym, etc. The dining plan is extremely flexible (20+ dining options). Study abroad is both easy and popular. I studied in Cyprus this summer, Wales this semester, and will be studying in Greece next summer. </p>
<p>UNC- UNC has three times as many undergrads as Duke, so it's a bit harder to stick out here. That said, a go-getter should have no problems getting involved at UNC. I've taken several courses at UNC and have always been very impressed with the quality of the professors and students. For example, one day I had to come in late for one of my classes, so I emailed the class for notes. Three people emailed their notes within 30 minutes! UNC offers esoteric things like Old Irish and Invertebrate Paleontology, so if you're not entirely sure what you want to do, UNC may be a great choice. More students tend to live off campus than students at Duke (required to live on campus for three years) or Wake Forest. </p>
<p>Duke and UNC have a consortium that allows students at either university to take one course per semester at the other university. I cannot stress enough how awesome and useful this is. The Robertson bus runs every 30 minutes, making transportation easy.</p>
<p>Wake Forest- It's smaller than the other schools, and although courses may not be much smaller, it has much more of a LAC-like feel. The student body is very lively, and the football team has done quite well lately (obviously basketball is also popular). Wake has excellent academics; I wasn't (too) surprised to learn that the instructor who'll be teaching Ugaritic and/or Akkadian at Duke my senior year is a professor at Wake! Wake provides all of its students with laptops and has made great strides to utilize technology in the classroom. Wake has extremely friendly students, although it doesn't have the same level of diversity of Duke or UNC.</p>
<p>Hi warblersrule: Good point about Davidson eliminating loans; I'd forgotten that, which they just instituted not long ago.</p>
<p>With regard to the Greek life again . . . I think these schools need to update their "facts." There seems to be varying information out there. ;)</p>
<p>The Duke website states that:</p>
<p>
[quote]
More than 40 percent of Duke women and nearly 30 percent of Duke men participate in one of the 38 recognized chapters here at Duke. In total, around 37 percent of Duke students are Greek affiliated.
[/quote]
<p>I'd seen 40% <em>total</em> written somewhere else, but this is what I found just now.</p>
<p>Jack:</p>
<p>I'll be the first to admit that I am probably just oversensitive on this point, but it always bothers me when the Greek percentage is inflated and people use language like "revolve" (are fraternities the sun to Wake Forest?). I see, too, that warblerrules86 has corrected your Duke numbers.</p>
<p>My figure is from WF Fact Book:</p>
<p>It is safe to say, of course, that there is a greater Greek presence at WFU than at UNC,; I just tire of it being overstated because a majority of students are not Greek, and many students have found a number of other activities for their life to "revolve" about when they wish.</p>
<p>I also think part of the reason that I responded originally is because you overstated the Wake Forest issue, but understated the UNC issue (your "you'd be hard-pressed to find a native North Carolinian there" seems to me the height of hyperbole) which seemed a bit unfair to me. And, I say that even though I don't believe you have a real horse in this race.</p>
<p>While there are many, many anecdotes about in-state students who make out-of-state friends and out-of-state students who make in-state friends, there are also anecdotes about freshmen at UNC rooming with their best friends from high school and really just living college life as an extension of high school. </p>
<p>Some students obviously like picking their best friend as a roommate because it is comfortable and familiar to them; I imagine it is even a selling point to some students at UNC (just as fraternities are for some students at Wake Forest). </p>
<p>For a contrast, though, freshmen roommates are assigned randomly at Wake Forest, and, unless things have changed since I graduated, North Carolinians are intentionally paired with students from other states. This, too, is a differnence between the schools.</p>
<p>Despite these differences, I suspect that most students at UNC can and do make friends with people from other states if they put forth the effort. Likewise, I think Wake Forest students can and do find a number of non-Greek things for their life to revolve around when they put forth the effort. </p>
<p>Both schools have high freshmen retention rates, which suggests to me a general happiness for students at both schools. I don't believe 95% of Wake Forest students would be happy if Greek life acted as the true center of the university's existence--though I don't doubt that you can find some students who make that very complaint. </p>
<p>Warblerrules86's comments on cost is also interesting. IIRC, he originally enrolled at Wake Forest because it offered him the most affordable option. Please correct me, warbler, if I am wrong...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Warblerrules86's comments on cost is also interesting. IIRC, he originally enrolled at Wake Forest because it offered him the most affordable option. Please correct me, warbler, if I am wrong...
[/quote]
Nope, that's exactly right. I <em>did</em> enroll initially at Wake and didn't really mind turning down my other choices. Duke matched the offer, though. :)</p>
<p>jack- Thanks for the link. It may be that numbers have risen in the last 3-4 years, although it's surprising that they would jump that much. In any case, the Greek scene isn't that big on campus (contrary to what Rolling Stone says :rolleyes:). They pretty much do their own thing, although almost all of their events are open to <em>any</em> student.</p>
<p>Demon Deacon: Well, I corrected warblersrule's correction. (See above.) ;)</p>
<p>While my comment about being "hard-pressed to find a native North Carolinian" might have been a bit hyperbolic, I do often feel that way myself. I am a native and live in one of those areas that's experienced all the growth and influx of people from all over--not just from around the country, but the world (and there's no end in sight of this current out-of-control growth), I truly don't run into that many native North Carolinians on a day-to-day basis. I'm actually always surprised when I do. Of course, I'm not on campus, either, but it is true that the most students at UNC come from those two high-growth areas mentioned above.</p>
<p>Before somebody jumps on me here, let me also add that this influx has made for a much more interesting area, but now I think they need to pull up the bridge. Our schools, roads, water resources, etc., can't handle much more growth.</p>
<p>That said, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would be surprised that there are more North Carolinians at a NC public university than any other state. Even at Duke, the highest percentage come from NC (~17%). Why this would be considered unfortunate, or even a surprise to people, is mind-boggling.</p>
<p>I do know of students (my kid's age) who chose to room with their high school friends freshman year. I <em>think</em> some of those folks are still friends. ;) Suffice to say the ones I know (admittedly, not that many) opted out of that arrangement soon enough. It's almost always a mistake to do that, in my opinion.</p>
<p>"OP don't let Altmom discount the fact that UNC is 81% in-state. as a student i must say that this will hugely affect your experience here. it's the difference between knowing 100s of people when you first come here and not knowing a soul. IMO it's a pretty huge hurdle especially as a transfer student. as a freshmen i'm sure it won't be nearly as bad because many people still want to branch out at that point right after being stuffed in high school with the same people for four years. funny how quickly they lose this inclination and go back to the same old thing. this all should be a big consideration despite what Altmom claims. i still like it here, however, eventhough i know three people so far. the anonymity is nice. i just don't want you to be misled.</p>
<p>UNC is definitely the least greek school out of all of those you mentioned. the others are all a third or more greek.</p>
<p>UNC is also the cheapest given any consideration, oos or in-state."</p>
<p>you're right about the instate crowd. some out of staters find their way via frats or being lucky, but some of us, like me, have had a hell of a time. i'll be looking to transfer to WFU for my sophomore year. sure, i'll walk into the same situation with people knowing each other, but classes will be smaller and the school's community is so much smaller that meeting people, i feel, will be much easier than it has been here. all i've seen here is people with their HS friends socializing and telling me upon meeting me that "gosh it must suck to be the only one from your HS here."</p>
<p>then they walk off.</p>
<p>Again, ahduke, I have to think you are in the worst possible housing situation (Granville) for an oos student and that is contributing to your difficulties. </p>
<p>My d is the only one from her entire school district of almost 100,000 students to attend UNC-CH. She is one of probably only a dozen from the Houston area to attend. No one has ever said it must suck to be the only one from her district to attend Carolina. Instead, they say 'coool...tell us more about Houston' or 'bring me some Texas souvenirs when you come back from break'. (Her Texas-shaped ice cubes are a huge hit...lol!)</p>
<p>Again, everyone, it is a disservice to parlay one individual's experience into something that would "hugely" affect all oos students. We have too many people here who are having a completely opposite experience for that to be true.</p>
<p>Btw...the phenomenon that jack describes is absolutely true in any high growth area. We live near HP headquarters and I very rarely run into a Native Texan, much less one with family who settled in Texas in the days of the Alamo and the Battle of San Jac...;) Most of the time, they don't even know what the term 'Native Texan' means...lol!</p>
<p>it could be where i am living. heck tonight my suite mates just went out to dinner by themselves and didnt even ask me or my roommate if we wanted to go, even though we've both made considerable efforts to befriend them. this is the kind of luck i am having.</p>