Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

Parents Forum
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<p>We spent about $30K/yr for older s’s college, and if we hadn’t, it probably would have disappeared in the stock market crash. So, IMO, it was money well spent. We are big believers in living frugally and paying for education. We are still watching our stock losses sloooooly recover, but we have a long way to go. DS’s college experience was priceless. Would do it all over again if I had to (though I probably would have had him apply EA instead of ED, as I think the $$ aid would have been different, and that school now no longer offers EA, but did when he applied).</p>

<p>That said, things are different for DS #2, and in today’s economic climate. We are currently living on one income as DH retired and is pursuing consulting, and are glad that college expenses for younger S are relatively small. Both could have gone to name-familiar-big-flagship-or-big-tech-U’s for very little cost, but it wasn’t the best fit for them, and I feel they (and we) made the right choice. Woould we have spent 50K/yr for college?? Dunno. One school (a top 20) that accepted younger s is in the $50K/yr range, and only offered $6k/yr in scholarship $. To us, it wasnt worth it, and he chose a lower ranked school with big scholarship.</p>

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<p>I HOPE we aren’t. That said, that is the full sticker for most of the schools he is looking at (except the state schools which would be practically free with his grades). We been told to expect $8-10,000 in merit scholarships from some of the schools. There are several small LACs in the state that would happily give him a full ride but he’s not interested in any of them. We won’t qualify for any needs based aid.</p>

<p>We have no experience with this so we aren’t sure what to expect. We are planning for the worse and hoping for the best.</p>

<p>Do they schools just offer you money after you apply or do you need to apply for merit based $$ separately?</p>

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<p>^^^continuing that thought - is there a certain ‘level’ of school that would be more likely to offer a lot of $$$ to kids in our category - 3.75 WA, ACT 31, few ECs?</p>

<p>My son’s current list contains 7 ‘reaches’, 3 Matches and 2 safeties. The two safeties are almost free since they are the big state universities.</p>

<p>His matches are: Kalamazoo, Lawrence, Lewis and Clark. How likely are these to offer merit $$$?</p>

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I don’t think it’s unusual. I have a friend who went to Yale. Early on it was clear that her daughter (who had some pretty severe LDs) was not cut out for academics. It was hard, but in the end she’s landed on her feet and is attending the Culinary Institute of America, a top notch institution in its own way.</p>

<p>I know I can’t help feeling colleges I’ve heard of are superior to one’s I haven’t heard of, though thanks to CC I’ve heard of a lot more than I had 10 years ago! Part of me wants my kids to go to name brand colleges, but my head knows that brand names aren’t everything. S2 will be applying to a range of colleges. I’m sure he’ll do fine, even if he doesn’t get into his reaches.</p>

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<p>It depends on the school and the scholarship. Typically, you’ll submit the FAFSA (and any other required paperwork), then the school takes it from there to dole out (or refuse) need-based or merit aid. However, in some cases there are special merit scholarships that require separate applications. Ask the financial aid office.</p>

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<p>Traditional wisdom says that you will only get significant merit money from academic safeties.</p>

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<p>^^^That’s what I thought. He not overly excited about his safeties at the moment. With our luck, we will have to pay full sticker price. At least he’s our only child.</p>

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<p>DebbieS7 - I would not worry too much about the merit money. In the T20-30, they are looking to steal away students that might otherwise go HYPSM, which does not fit this thread. My son received 3 scholarships from T20-30 schools without applying, although for 2 he had to go for an interview (at the school’s expense). Each would have paid about $20K. He might have done better if he had really looked into it, but we assumed that it was “need” or nothing. There is a huge thread from a mom in Texas whose sons(?) have had great luck with merit by applying to schools where her sons were in the top percentages.</p>

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<p>Very well said. Just as your two sons need to be immersed in different intellectual soups, we need to help our kids find their own intellectual soups. Each school offers a unique mixture and concentration of active agents. We just need to help our kids find the school that has the right level of active agents for them. To do this, we must first understand where our own kids well enough to determine what environment is best for them. After we come up with a list of candidate schools, we then switch the focus to getting them there, which lead us right back to the purpose of this thread. How can we help them get there?</p>

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<p>so, going back to the original theme of the thread: if we are talking about rising HS seniors, it does seem too late by now to cook up new ECs, radically improve scores and grades. In a classic product management lingo, this is the case of “product has been already been developed and manufacturered, so how do we sell this”. The degree of freedom left is in the area of (1) customer segment (2) brand management and positioning (3) marketing and sale tactics.</p>

<p>I doubt this strategy works well with large public school that are more number driven, but T40 schools are largely (and unfortunately) private schools and they do seem to look for right chemistry between them and the kids as an important factor. </p>

<p>(1) customer segment selection</p>

<p>which schools might welcome the product that our kids are??? </p>

<p>The best source of research is really the CC forum on each school. Go to the school forum on CC, read a couple of days on past threads on each school forum. You will realize that the picture emerges on what kind of school it is, and what kind of kids they want. Can your kid be packaged to be “palatable” for this or that school? Well, these are the schools your “nearly finished” product can be tweaked here and there and be presented as a “highly sellable goods”. Many schools in this category seem to have a bit of a complex vis-a-vis HYPSM. Don’t diss them by making them feel like a frumpy Sarah who got asked to the prom at the last minute because Johnny couldn’t get Missy the perfect 10 cheer leader. She wants to be made to feel “special”. Ever heard of “Tuft Syndrome”???</p>

<p>(2) brand management and positioning: </p>

<p>I believe this is where the essays come in. We need to look at essays as branding and market positioning tool and an advertising campaign rolled in one. You have 30 seconds worth of air time with bored audience that hear SO MANY similar product pitches dawn to dusk. What will you emphasize during that precious 30 seconds worth of attention from customers? I guess you will focus on why this is the best product for them. Teachers’ rec letter is another avenue. If you have a theme, perhaps you can even share that with HS GC. Give them a “cheat sheet” on what the school is looking for in the candidate, and politely ask if the rec letter can address those issues subtly by highlighting the aspects of Johnny on that dimension. I know this may be a tough sell: HS GCs and teachers are overwhelmed and the last thing they want to do is to deliver “customized” rec letter for each school your kid is applying to. In S2’s large suburban public school, there is no way GC gets to know each kid well enough to really write “personal” rec letter, so they let the kids to submit “brag sheet” so that they can write a “proper” rec letter. Then, this is the opportunity to highlight the points that want mentioned in the rec letter.</p>

<p>(3) marketing and sales tactics: </p>

<p>can you do campus interviews? If so, this couldn’t hurt if your kid is the kind of kid who comes across very well with adults. Though they keep saying that interviews are just optional, etc, I think it matters if it was a campus interview. we are all human beings. If the people who are actually making the admission decision met your kid in person and came away with a good impression, how could that NOT affect their decision? Again, when you go and spend some time on college specific CC forums, you get interesting information on this aspect too. Some schools seem to ever so quietly “reward” the kids who bothered to come and have an interview on campus. There must be more marketing and sales tactics. I need to think about this for S2.</p>

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<p>Now, note that we haven’t done ANY OF THESE with S1. we were complete idiots with S1. We made so many mistakes with him complete with a wildly innocent and ignorant assumption that Berkeley, Cornell and Northwestern will be his safeties. He got an EA from Chicago so we didn’t bother with Cornell and Northwestern, and Berkeley whose deadline was before the EA decision came out did accept him, but it could have easily gone the other way for an OOS student that S1 was. </p>

<p>In S1’s case, we accidentally stumbled into U Chicago that is a perfect fit for him. It’s the kind school that is best for him, and he is the kind of candidate that is perfect for them. We did not know that when he was applying. We have done zero research on this school. He simply applied to it for the strength and reputation of the econ department. He was lucky they picked him. If he had been a borderline candidate, the fact that we have done no research and hence no “strategic product positioning” for this school may have cost him the admission. I really think we were extraordinarily lucky with the S1. His ancestors looked kindly upon him. </p>

<p>Unlike S1 who went to a magnet school rated as a top 5 public HS in the nation where there were only 60+ kids and where teachers knew each kid very well, S2, a rising HS junior, is in a large suburban public HS. So, I need to be much more forward looking and strategic. Unlike his brother who had literally perfect stats (SAT 2400, etc, etc), this one does need a much more “thoughtful and strategic” thinking behind the whole application strategy. We have more than a year, so there is room to “further develop” the product in addition to the steps I described earlier. He was shut out of AP classes this coming junior year even though he wanted them and was qualified for them (long story, there is another thread I started on this), so I “fixed” the problem by working with the school authorities when his charm alone couldn’t sway them. He is enrolled in an SAT prep course this fall (the usual variety like Princeton review group sessions). I am planning to gently suggest that at the start of the Junior fall semester, think about which teachers he wants to ask for rec letter year down the road, and try to build rapport with them well in advance. ECs are completely his, and I don’t ever try to influence them. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, this summer, I have done a lot of research on the potential best fit schools for him. I already have good candidates based on his stated desires for career and the kind of kid he is. All throughout this fall and next spring, I will be tracking the CC discussion threads on each of these schools. By the time next summer rolls, I will have vicariously gone through the full application/admission cycle on these schools, and I believe that will help tremendously in terms of “brand management, positioning, marketing, and sales” described above. He is an ROTC hopeful, and I have already talked to a few commanders of the ROTC units that serve the school that might be a good fit for S2. I have a good feel for what kind of dynamics takes place between the ROTC unit commanders and college admission counselors for each school/unit combination. I now know how best to help him get the ROTC scholarship and how to leverage that to increase his odds of getting into certain schools. </p>

<p>S2 does not know that I am doing any of these. Well, he does, sort of. But he doesn’t know how much I know and how much I am doing. He shouldn’t. If he does, he will feel like the whole process has been hijacked by me, and that’s not the kind of message I want him to have. I will make sure that he remains fully in charge of the whole process the way HE SEES IT. All throughout his application process, I will simply be a consultant, but I believe that the best consultant must know more than what the client wants to know, and supply answers in a quiet way even for the questions that remain unasked by the client. He is doing enough by being 100% in charge of his future ambition and ECs that reflect that passion and by getting good grades and scores that will get him to places where he will be happy. I don’t believe a 16-17 year old boy can get to the level of “strategic product positioning” that I can, and this is one of the assets he has in his disposal he should use, even without knowing that he had it and it helped him.</p>

<p>I will be making sausage for him behind the scene splattering blood and gore all over the place, but I will not serve it to him or wait on him. It’s a self serve cafeteria. </p>

<p>He is benefiting so much that he is not the first child - he wouldn’t have any of this unspoken guidance he were the first child.</p>

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<p>LOL about sausagemaking!</p>

<p>One thing was have done with both guys, starting at the end of middle school, was to talk about their goals and what they can do to have the most choices when it comes time for college. The decisions were up to them, but with the idea that their decisions about which HS they’d attend, course selection, ECs, community service, work, etc. would have an effect on their choices down the road. </p>

<p>One of my kids wound up very deeply focused; the other is more across-the-board. As is typical, this is another case where we have to parent each kid as he is, not as we did for the other one. Both have made choices I didn’t expect, but which are consistent with who they are. In both cases, those unanticipated choices have borne fruit – so much for parents knowing everything!</p>

<p>They are different kids, different profiles, and we will just see how it all sorts out. They both have made lists of schools they like and would be happy to attend, so my hope is that wherever they both land, they will be prepared to be self-supporting, mature young adults. Or so I pray! :)</p>

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<p>hyonjlee, thanks for your different and thoughtful take on “marketing” our students!</p>

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<p>one thing I might add:</p>

<p>I am 100% hands off when it comes to how my kids manage their time. All throughout 18 years and 16 years respectively of my kids life so far, I have yet to tell them to study for an exam, what time to go to bed, how much time they are spending on the web, how much TV they watch, and how much video/on line game they play. I know this will horrify some parents, but that’s the way it has been. For short term goal like getting to the best college, undoubtedly this was totally a sub par strategy, but on a long term, I believe this is the right thing to do with my kids. I am gunning for a marathon win for them, not a 100m sprint. </p>

<p>belatedly, S1 became a consummate time manager and organizer in his summer internship position (after he graduated from HS this summer). S2 is on his way: he follows a complicated EC schedule on his own, and claims that he is the kid being promoted fastest in his sort of junior ROTC like EC organization - and that’s because he lined up every activity just perfectly to achieve the maximum velocity in getting up in the rank.</p>

<p>ROTC scholarship application wildly complicates everything for S2, and it takes good 6-8 month lead time, before the normal application submission for college take place, to optimize the chance of getting the scholarship, which is full tuition plus generous monthly stipend and some schools even throw in room and/or board. this is a big deal. This is the reason why I am quietly doing a lot research on the background (hence, sausage making behind the closed door). When the time comes, HE will be doing all the necessary work, but he will have a consultant at hand who has become a minor expert in this area</p>

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<p>On the subject of being hands-off, I have recently undertaken a new approach to college applications: If he can’t manage to apply successfully to a school on his own, then he’s not ready to go there.</p>

<p>Of course, I’m still available to discuss it with him, and I share information with him, but I’m not reminding him of deadlines or coaching him on his essays unless he asks for it.</p>

<p>It remains to be seen whether he’ll take the reins, but this approach has given me considerable peace of mind the last few weeks. I think I’ll stick with it. (And, again, we’re fortunate that he thinks State U is pretty good, because at worst that’s where he’ll end up.)</p>

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<p>hyonjlee, I agree with your approach. I spent a lot of time agonizing over what my level of involvement should be in this process. I believe in letting kids ‘own’ the process as well as the consequences. I never, once, in 12 years of school complained about unfair grade, pushed to have my child put into an advanced class against the advice of his teachers,etc. Heck, I haven’t been involved in the whole homework, schoolwork process since about 4th grade. My son gets his work done and he gets the grades he deserved. He writes his own papers, he doesn’t even let me edit them for grammar or spelling. I do believe that kids need their parents to advocate for them at times, but I see too many parents trying to mitigate the consequences of their child’s actions. That can set kids up for entitlement issues as adults. I’ve seen the outcome of this plenty of times when young adults come to work for the first time and have a rude awakening about how the real world actually works. </p>

<p>So my initial response has been to let him handle this with his counselor. BUT this is a big decision, one that will impact my husband and I financially for the next 5 years or so. I finally came to the conclusion that, for my own peace of mind, I need to have a good understanding of the schools he is looking at and do enough research to be able to help him make a decision, should the need arise.</p>

<p>I started a ‘college notebook’ this weekend with a section for each school he is applying to. I printed off the common data set for each school and then select application information. I will add to it as I do more research. I’m the organizer and planner in the family. It goes against my grain not to have all the data in front of me on something as big as this. I suspect that is true of most of the parents here at CC - that’s why we are here gathering and sharing information.</p>

<p>That said, he will be fully responsible for completing the applications,essays, teacher rec, etc and meeting any deadline.</p>

<p>I see this as (mostly) his decision but it is also to a lesser degree a family decision since we will be the ones providing all the financial support.</p>

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<p>I have a different opinion on the “hands off” approach that have been discussed here. My DS1 is still a minor. He can’t vote yet and he can’t drink yet. So obviously our society believe he can’t yet be fully responsible for things. We the parents are still in charge at least in the eyes of our legal system.</p>

<p>This does not mean I make all the decisions for him, and it doen’t mean I dictate everything in his college application process. However, it does mean that I actively guide him and work with him to find suitable schools which he can channel his passion productively. I’m not tinkering with his passion or what he wants to pursue, but I’m helping him to find an environment that can nurture and position him for the “marathon” we discussed upthread. So, in the college selection and filtering process, I’m not just passively watching this and only provide assistance when asked.</p>

<p>This said, DS1 is the person doing all the application work here. Filling out applications, getting recommendations, writing essays, he does all these things and more. He is the responsible person for completing the applications. Mom and I make suggestions along the way (againg we make them actively, not passively only when asked), but for the most part, we are just his sidekicks on this part.</p>

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<p>Great. PCP, I shared my kids’ (general) profiles and some colleges I thought might be appropriate for them to explore, and got some great feedback that I was in the general ballpark of reasonableness - with enough reach thrown in to keep it aspirational, but enough safety thrown in to keep it from being a disappointment. Since this is a thread in which we all learn from one another, I’d love to hear your kid’s general profile and colleges that you are finding out might be interesting and worthwhile to explore.</p>

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<p>I am not a hands-off kind of mom. I made college suggestions based on my own research and D did further research on her own and nixed most of the ones I liked. However, her list is almost 100% complete now and she (and I) would be happy with any college on it, including the safeties. She may do some pruning in the next couple of weeks (who wants to apply to 15 schools?) but the final decisions will be her own with input from me. Notice, I said input not pressure.</p>

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<p>That really is the key. I struggle with keeping input from feeling like pressure to my son, so I’m trying to err on the side of just keeping my mouth shut, which I think comes across to my son as “slight pressure”. :slight_smile: About twice a week I say something like, “Give any thought to college applications lately?” His reaction, however brief, and whether verbal or non-verbal, tells me enough. Then I might say something like, “Well, just let me know if you need any help.” We’ll see how this goes after a month or so.</p>

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<p>The counselor at our s’s HS used to recommend one day a week (she arbitrarily picked Thursdays) where there was NO college conversation. General school and family stuff was ok to discuss, but college conversations (unless there was some absolute deadline that fell on that day) was off limits. I always liked that idea.</p>