<p>hmom5 - was this a paid private counselor?</p>
<p>Hi, I have two rising juniors. If their UW is in this neighborhood (3.6 ish) but weighted puts them over 4.0, are they “eligible” for this thread? They’re taking a hard classload, but getting a mix of A’s and B’s. I’m personally not keen on them applying to the top 20 schools (except for the one where they are a double legacy) because I feel like it’s setting them up for disappointment. Oh - not URM, not athletes, and their EC’s are reasonably interesting but no captain / president / state / national awards for anything.</p>
<p>Congratulations on “two rising juniors”. Are they twins? Why do you feel “it’s setting them up for disappointment” by encouraging them to apply to the top 20? How do they feel about it?</p>
<p>Yes, they are twins (b/g). I don’t know, it just seems SUCH a crapshoot, and I admit I get very discouraged by reading about these perfect kids with perfect SAT’s and perfect GPA’s who start their own companies and win science awards and captain the football team to the winning champion and serve as president of the senior class and help little old ladies across the street, and they get rejected anyway. </p>
<p>They have up close and personal experience with the top 20 u where they are double legacy (as we still live in the general area). It’s got probably a 20-25% acceptance rate (I don’t know, I’d have to look it up, but in that vicinity). But they have no real “hooks.” They’re just generally smart but not genius kids, a little on the young side (to be honest), they are reasonably involved in activities and personal interests but they aren’t the stars of the school … they’re just normal teenagers. So I keep trying to figure out how, as we start the process of actively visiting campuses, how they should yang where everyone else yings, kwim? </p>
<p>They don’t know enough at this point to feel or not feel about it … they’re going to take their cues from me. Not from their friends. This is an area which is upper middle class, but the overwhelming number of kids either go to the local comm college to save money and then transfer, or go to one of our state schools (and we have a great state flagship). They aren’t in the pod that other kids are, where all their friends are comparing elite schools to one another. </p>
<p>So … on the uni side, I am just not sure I see the point of dragging them to visit (say) Harvard, Princeton, etc. I mean, what are they not going to like about those places? I’m more interested in the LAC side, both from a yang-instead-of-yin perspective, but also because I think one in particular would really spark to an LAC. </p>
<p>I want to let them lead it, so I was thinking of giving them an “assignment” of … here is when we’ll be taking tours this year. We’ll hit upper New England, Boston, Phila, DC / MD / VA, and wherever they want in the Midwest (Minneapolis for Macalester, Iowa for Grinnell, that type of thing). Not one trip obviously - we’re thinking multiple trips! So, given those places, here’s a list of colleges in those places, here are the ones we (mom / dad) think might be particularly interesting / relevant … you pick. At the same time, I want to be able to throw in a few “mom wants you to see this even if you don’t think you’re interested” - e.g., I want to throw in Bryn Mawr as an example of a girls school for D, even if she doesn’t think she wants that. (We have relatives in Philly so it’s comparatively easy to fit that in.) Does that make sense?</p>
<p>I do have some “prejudices” upfront. I don’t see a lot in California that I think is worth seeing; I’m not interested in the UC’s or USC (nothing against those schools, just not something I think is their style). I have a bit of a bias towards the Northeast just because I’d like to get them thinking outside the midwestern box.</p>
<p>I applaud your approach of leading them to figuring out the college list for themselves. It is their future, they ought to have a deciding voice in it. On the other hand, we as parents ought to guide and inspire them toward the stars , kwim? For this reason, I started this thread. Do we really know they are going to be miserable in a top 20? I mean we all hope our “normal teenagers” will accomplish something extraordinary one day and be happy in the process. In fact, most of the kids think the same way. There is a desire to achieve in all of us. The good schools, in general, do have better faculty and resource to equip our kids, not to mention the powerful alumni networks. Yes, kids with incredible credentials get rejected in droves, but people apply anyway to keep their dreams alive. Parents should not have unrealistic expectations, and should let the kids know that rejections don’t make them any less valuable than the kids who get in. Let’s get back to the business of helping our kids get to the best school they can, shall we?</p>
<p>I never think of JHU, I don’t know why since I know it has other strengths besides science. My husband considered doing a post-doc there. </p>
<p>I have to say though, looking at our school’s Naviance it looks extremely unlikely. The accepted kids have weighted GPAs five points higher than his AND higher SAT scores. There’s one waitlisted student with similar stats and a bunch of rejections. No non-stellar GPAs from our school.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl I think the Claremont Colleges are worth looking at, and Caltech if you have a budding (and brilliant and nerdy) scientist. Otherwise, I don’t think California is worth the trip, though I have to say, I loved, loved, loved my three years living in Pasadena.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes. There’s a lively thread now going on concerning this topic. IMO, the situation here is a perfect one to have good help with, for these candidates an outstanding application is especially important.</p>
<p>thanks, paperchase.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s not that I think they’d be miserable in a top 20; and I am a top 20 grad myself. You don’t need to sell me on those benefits! I am fully aware of the dream to go to top schools, because that was <em>my</em> dream – not for prestige, but because I’m one of those who could just live and breathe academics all day long. However, I’m not sure they have my drive. I don’t mean that badly and I’m not saying that they are slackers in the least, but I had an intensity about it that they don’t have. </p>
<p>I am just uncertain about putting too much emphasis on look-how-wonderful-these-crapshoot-schools are, and how to balance shoot-for-the-stars with let’s-find-a-great-place-that-you-have-a-reasonable-shot-of-getting-into. That’s why I welcome this discussion.</p>
<p>There’s also a part of me, though, that thinks that the adcoms at top 20 schools must also just be so darn tired of these Superkids that every nth kid, they just pick a bright, well rounded kid who has something different to offer, even if he hasn’t won Intel / cured cancer / taken a bazillion AP’s.</p>
<p>I mean, what do you do if just have a normal, bright kid? Who isn’t self-studying classic Greek on the weekends, or taking ukelele lessons, but just kind of doing things that interest him or her at the level of a normal teenager?</p>
<p>Mathmom, my middle son’s experience did not validate what PC Pop had to say. S2 was waitlisted at JHU for IR with top scores, GPA and EC’s. </p>
<p>It’s my third son who fits this thread. He had an IEP in grammar school and worked very hard to get rid of what he considered the “stigma” of the IEP. He went to HS with no accommodations. Had very erratic grades in freshman and sophomore years (3.0-3.2 if you count gym, and band!) then hit a 3.75 junior year. He now needs to apply EA/ED to at least three of his schools, which is going to be tough. His test scores are very solid, though. Wish him luck!</p>
<p>Oh I do wish him luck. I’ve also got a kid who dropped the IEP (actually a 504) like a hot potato in high school. I’m lucky he adores multiple choice tests and he’s a great kid. I think he’d thrive in a lot of places.</p>
<p>I’ve got one who had an informal IEP from elem school through the beginning of HS, at which point the HS said tough luck. S did not want to pursue it with the school.</p>
<p>S2 is in a competitive admit full IB diploma program (top 50 USNWR), plus has taken 8 APs (all 4s and 5s) as of the end of junior year. Will take 4 APs and 4 IBs senior year. 3.56 UW (9-11), 4.24 W, very strong SAT and SAT-IIs. Grades reflect the difficulty of the academics. Captain of debate team for two years, does Model UN, does professional catering and has been involved with a local archaeology program since 4th grade (as camper and staff). Has 500+ community service hours. Does not have a lot of awards, in part because there aren’t many opportunities in his area of interest vs. the science/math competitions. He plays football, though is not a recruited athlete. Would like to play at D-III; coaches have said they’d love to have him (he’s a big lineman) but will not use a tip because his academics are very strong.</p>
<p>Has two T20s on his list, but I suspect will drop one. Much of his list is in the next range, with some strong LACs in the mix as well. Is not gunning for Ivy and wants great IR/polisci/history. S2 is a terrific guy with a broad range of unusual interests.</p>
<p>We have told him now it’s all about the essays and first semester grades. He’s tired of hearing the “it’s crunch time now” trope, believe me!</p>
<p>RE: JHU – Naviance from S2’s school indicates that applicants with a 3.4-3.6 and strong SATs do well in the ED round. RD, not so much. S2 considered JHU and felt that he had spent enough time already in a pressure cooker, even though there are lots of threads to the contrary.</p>
<p>What is your S2’s class rank? If he is ranked high enough, than the GPA may be fine since he seems to have impressive ECs. Btw, years ago my young brother received a full ride from JHU and turned it down because of “enough time already in a pressure cooker.” He just didn’t want to feel being second class after coming off an extremely competitive HS. I still felt he will regret it one day.</p>
<p>PaperChaser, I’ll PM you, but the short answer is, the school doesn’t rank.</p>
<p>Mantori.suzuki, I wouldn’t emphasize it (sounds like whining) but to me it seems an admission officer would take into consideration that your kid had to attend 3 different schools for h.s. </p>
<p>I couldn’t quanitify it, I just feel they’d know that it’s a disadvantage to not have the smooth passage from one curriculum year to the next in certain subject areas, or the benefit of placement based upon prior experience with known teachers, etc. Even the distraction of a new peer group is a factor, albeit a small one. </p>
<p>I think it speaks for itself, and wouldn’t build an essay around it! They’ll readily see 3 transcripts from 3 locations. Did you also have to move as a family, or was this all while living in the same place?</p>
<p>Hey paperchase, I want to thank you for making me ask a very obvious question. I said to my kids tonight " so what if you found the perfect school and it had only a 30% acceptance rate, would you apply?" They said yes. Then I said what if it were 20%? 10%? They looked at me as if I had two heads and D said, “why not? I have a 0% chance if I don’t try.” It hit me that I may have projected my own mother bear don’t want to see them hurt onto them. But by the same token, how do you balance that with a dose of reality? This is hard!!</p>
<p>Pizzagirl,
The balance with reality is that your kids find schools with higher acceptance rates that have what they want, where they offer something special to the school, and they’d also love. Spend the bulk of time and energy on those essays and apps. For both my kids, their favorite schools were not the ones with the highest rankings – but the rankings weren’t driving the list in the first place.</p>
<p>However, I will say that S2 dropped a couple of schools from his list because he felt there just was not enough of a prayer of getting in. Naviance at his school, combined with his brother’s school’s Naviance data, gives us some pretty realistic chances. Some kids, even though they know the odds, are still devastated when bad news arrives. (S2 is one of those kids; on the other hand, he does not want to be a big fish in a smaller pond.) This is one of those situations where knowing your kid helps you all develop a strategy. </p>
<p>S has a list with which he knows he’s not likely to get accepted everywhere, but has an excellent chance of having some fine choices next April.</p>
<p>I think it is better to apply and fail with no regret than not applying at all. We can always learn something no matter the outcome. It is a privilege we enjoy in this country to be able to apply to whatever schools we like. Imagine not going to the voting booth to exercise our democratic right to vote just because our candidate is behind in the poll. I believe it is good for them to be bold at their age and chase their dreams even if it’s a long shot.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about this and had the discussion with my sister today. When we have Naviance and common data sets, we have a darn good idea what the admissions outcome is going to be for kids with no hook and below median stats at top schools. Heck, it’s unlikely a kid with 75th percentile stats will get into some of these schools.</p>
<p>What concerns me is if the kid is not prepared and doesn’t fully understand this, it might end up being a lesson we don’t want to teach. Much of life is more flexible than the top 20 colleges. A great personality and drive might get you a job that didn’t look likely. Will this teach kids not to take risks?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>mantori –</p>
<p>My son is also in a situation where his AP and SAT 2 scores show much more mastery of the subjects than his grades do. However, in a conversation with his GC, she pointed out that this could be a double-edged sword. It could cause the adcoms to surmise either:</p>
<p>A) this student learned the material, but might have been bored with the irrelevant class minutiae. He loves learning for learnings sake and isnt a grade grubber.
OR
B) this just reinforces what his other test scores show, which is that this kid is a slacker whos unwilling to work hard.</p>
<p>BTW, my son is a little of both. He loves learning and hes a bit of a slacker.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, this. Or it just becomes a dumb strategy – like the kids who apply all-Ivy and then a state school, with no nuance in between.</p>
<p>I guess here’s the other question. How “low do you go” before you’re going too low? Top 50? Top 100? (Yes, I know not to live and die by USNWR, but you all know what I mean.) For kids at this level … what is too reachy and what is too safety?</p>