<p>m-s…it depends on how “wonderful” that EC is in the eyes of the adcoms. I think being an olympic athlete might be a good “excuse” for a “slightly lower” GPA…but doing a travel soccer team in addition to the school soccer team would not be. Just my humble opinion, of course.</p>
<p>The “rule” in our household was that if your grades slipped because of your EC…the EC time had to be altered. DS, in particular, was heavily involved in his music ECs and would have picked up numerous additional ensembles IF we would have allowed it. At some point, we told him he needed to prioritize his EC involvement and pick the ensembles that were most beneficial to him. He simply could NOT continue to add thing…his time was not unlimited.</p>
<p>‘GPA around 3.5-3.6 at three different high schools, with no particular trend
(transcript includes a semester C as Freshman and a semester D as Sophomore, both in non-honors humanities courses)’
Because of these, I highly doubt he would make the cut at Stanford or Yale, simply because of the sheer #'s of applicants with similar SAT/ACT scores but with better GPA’s.</p>
<p>He REALLY has to nail his Chicago essays to have a good chance there. I hope he will use one of their essay prompts and “let it rip”. They need to see that he can really write well, since Chicago takes great pride in turning out “well rounded scholars”, and requires ALL students to take the Core, which is not easy for those weak in the humanities.</p>
<p>"Surely students whose grades slip slightly when they take on wonderful ECs don’t always suffer come admissions time. "
Not when you are trying to get into a highly selective college! Most selective colleges look for a rising trend in GPA, or at least a flat trend with increasingly more difficult classes.
take a look at this survey done by the NYTimes: it lists, AFTER GPA and test Scores, the way other factors are weighted in admissions decisions by 105 universities.</p>
<p>If Chicago is a goal for your son, be sure to sign up for an interview.</p>
<p>When it comes to the admission decision making process in the top 10 schools, it is all a black box to me so whatever input I have is totally non-scientific.</p>
<p>that said, I have a sneaking suspicion that a terrific interview helped S1 very much. In his case, the lackluster EC was his achilles heel, and during the interview he was able to articulate what he did with his “copious” free time (reading voraciously in the area of economics/finances on his own). He knew the interview went well when she told him that he was the perfect fit for Chicago and asked him what else he would like her to include in the interview report that might have been lacking in the application package so that she could help him increase his odds. </p>
<p>A terrific interview may explain and/or compensate for the GPA weakness for your son.</p>
<p>In general, my feeling is, if the applicant has uneven qualification/stats, a terrific interview can help greatly in that it can shed more light on his/her strong points and ameliorate the weak spots.</p>
Because of these, I highly doubt he would make the cut at Stanford or Yale, simply because of the sheer #'s of applicants with similar SAT/ACT scores but with better GPA’s.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That sounds plausible. What about Penn? I’ve been thinking of pushing Penn because it’s a little less selective than other tippy-top schools and is in a great city.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=menloparkmom]
He REALLY has to nail his Chicago essays to have a good chance there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=hyeonjlee]
If Chicago is a goal for your son, be sure to sign up for an interview.</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>A terrific interview may explain and/or compensate for the GPA weakness for your son.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know he will interview very well. He writes well when he writes, but he has an incredible procrastination/writer’s block problem. I can imagine him churning out his essays two hours before the application deadline, and they’ll be good, but obviously there’s a limit to how good anything can be when it’s done at the last minute. Part of the problem is that he believes he doesn’t have anything interesting to say (mistakenly, I think). This inability to write fluidly has been a curse for some time.</p>
<p>mantori - Your son’s test scores are close to perfect! He should have very little problem with the four schools you listed earlier. You really need to spend time on packaging and positioning. Since you’ve already got a list of good matches and a safety, I don’t see anything wrong with your list of reaches/super-reaches, as long as the time spent on applying to the super-reaches does not create a problem for your son. This is the “why not” spirit!</p>
<p>I have to agree with Menloparkmom. Good scores go a long way with schools that are a tier down. The Ivies and other very selective schools are looking for high GPAs (either consistently or at least with an upward trend.) My kid who is at a HYP school did not get into U Penn and was waitlisted at Wash U. This is not uncommon at all. She has another friend who got into Yale but not into Brown. Remember, these schools are creating very specific classes. It’s fine to throw in applications and play the lottery but focus on the match schools.</p>
<p>thumper, DH suspended S2’s participation in after-school football conditioning after first semester grades last year. They weren’t terrible, but they hit the minimum GPA we (and he) considered acceptable for continued participation. (This was negotiated and agreed upon at the beginning of freshman year, and was a 3.25, before someone complains we’re terrible for pulling him out!) Lemme tell ya, the coaches had a fit, esp. when they heard the GPA standard. OTOH, he roared back the next two marking periods. He learned a lot about himself and how to kick up the afterburners when courses get progressively tougher.</p>
<p>What is your son’s ranking? There was a discussion on the Penn thread that basically concluded that ranking was extremely important and that if you were not in the top 10 percent, things started to look really bad acceptance-wise.</p>
<p>
Frankly, this worries me. A good friend just came through a brutal admissions season last year - rejected from all top choices - due to one D on an otherwise very solid record.</p>
<p>Definition of EC is “extra.” Main focus of any student is still schoolwork. D2 got a D+ on a math test last year because she was too busy with ballet and misjudged on amount of studying was needed on a higher level math. She was banned from dance until she got an A on the next test. She has been studying with her current instructor since 3. The teacher understood and was supportive of our position. She also told D2 if she were to miss to many dance classes then she wouldn’t be able to get any major parts for the next performance. For the remainder of semester D2 had to get A or A+ on each test to makeup for the D+. She did every extra credit on test and homework. She ended up with an A- for the semester. Her math teacher called her “the best come back kid.”</p>
<p>College students have a lot more freedom than high school students. One problem some students run into is to take on too many ECs or party too much and not spend enough time on schoolwork when they no longer have parental guidance. Top tier schools with rigorous course load want to have students that could balance out schoolwork with demanding ECs. Getting a D+ last years was a wake up call for D2. I think if we’ve given her a pass because of ballet, we would have missed a “teaching moment” for our 15 year old.</p>
<p>His school doesn’t rank, but based on the information they publish, I believe he is very close to the 90th percentile. Trouble is, they don’t weight GPA, and there are some kids with better grades in less challenging classes, so it’s hard to tell what they’ll actually say to colleges.</p>
<p>Thanks for the tip about Penn and rank. I’ll go and do some more research.</p>
<p>Here is a post from 2006 that gives some perspective. It quotes an article our college counselor sent home that year about admissions at a school below the ivies that was an eye opener:</p>
<p>ms
you may want to take a look at this accepted student data from Penn. It details the % by decile for the accepted 2012- the acceptance rate for those below the top 5% is less than 8%.
Penn does appear to be VERY rank conscious.
here is the data PCP:</p>
<p>I sent this thread to my sister whose daughter is in this category and applying this year. The more I look at the college stats and analyze, the more firmly I believe these kids have the best chance by:</p>
<p>–looking at schools known to think outside of the box in terms of who they accept;</p>
<p>–applying to top publics where their formulas mean a high SAT can counter a low GPA;</p>
<p>–producing phenomenal applications by working with professionals.</p>
<p>“producing phenomenal applications by working with professionals”
I don’t think a professional is required to produce a phenomenal application. I would be wary of having an application look TOO packaged or appear to have been tweeked or edited by an adult. JMHO</p>
<p>I have two kids who initially did not use a professional and one that did. Let me tell you, I felt like a fool when I saw what one could do and understood why my first two’s well written essays did not get them into their top choices. I know it’s controversial here so I always hesitate to post this advice, but it’s my strong opinion that kids in this category, and many others, would get a huge boost.</p>
<p>The thing about the good professionals is they don’t make kids looked packaged. Just the opposite in my experience, my DS’s application and my niece’s this year were actually made more relaxed by a professional hand.</p>
<p>To me, when the parents are sweating it this much and the families clearly want a shot at top colleges for these kids, if they can afford the couple thousand dollars (you don’t need Hernandez) it’s a drop in the bucket when looked at as a part of the total college investment. My sister is looking for financial aid for my niece, and getting into a good school that meets full need will save them a lot in the end. Otherwise she’ll be full pay at a UC.</p>
<p>“the families clearly want a shot at top colleges for these kids”
Ah, that is the rub, isn’t it? So the real question is- how realistic is it for parents and students with gpa’s under 3.6 to pin their hopes on getting into a top 20??
Not very realistic statistically speaking, if the student is not a recruited athlete, DA, legacy, URM, or a very smart underprivileged student coming from a poor background. That is why so many of us old timers continue to preach the CC mantra- Love Thy Safety!. ANY student applying to the most competitive colleges has a small chance of acceptance these days, and for those with less than stellar gpa’s- those that fall in the bottom 25% of accepted students at any one school- then the chances are even more remote. The most important thing a student/ parent/counselor can do is to find college[s] that the student would be more likely to be accepted at AND would BE HAPPY. It is far too easy IMHO to spend too much time focusing on trying to get into the unlikely dream college, and too little time spent on finding the colleges where a student would thrive.</p>
<p>Whoa! That is an eye-opener. Do most colleges post such data? If so, I must go find it. With so many top-twenty schools to choose fromI believe there are twenty of them!kids may as well apply to the ones they have the best chance of being admitted to, eh?</p>