<p>According to The Tech for class 2011:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>sclark14, I’m surprised her GC recommended Northwestern, Middlebury, Tufts, Georgetown, Vanderbilt and Emory as “fit”. I’d consider them at least reaches. To be honest, your D’s test scores were at about the medium point for these schools, but her GPA is low for them. As discussed, GPA is the dominant factor here, unless her school is big on grade deflation. </p>
<p>I AM surprised about her results, especially from Villanova & Richmond! This is depressing. I guess things are harder than I thought.</p>
<p>What I see in these posts is a shared dilemma. Bright kids (often with high test scores) and middling grades. These are kids who (1) struggled with certain subjects that brought down their grades, (2)were immature or disorganized at school and had less than perfect grades, or (3) are kids who don’t sweat the small stuff like missing the occassional homework assignment or deadline. My DS is a bit of (2) with a big dose of (3) but he has friends who are clearly in (1) or (2). Big fish in small pond kind of outcome would be great for kid type 1 and 2. They have the opportunity to build their confidence and mature in a cosier, easier environment. I can imagine them getting it together and really shining in a smaller environment with less competition. But for kid type (3) does your experience show that getting a somewhat unmotivated kid into a university with really bright and ambitious people helpful or counterproductive? DS has 3.4 UW but 2250 SATs. He can’t even get into the honors program at the nearby second tier state university (avg SAT 1300) because of the GPA (min 3.5 and 1900 SAT). Never mind that he has enough AP and IB credits to be a sophomore at this university! What would be a good type of university for such a kid? Should we push him to try to get into reach universities (Carnegie Mellon, WUSTL) or settle for the easy (and cheap) sure thing at low-level state U. Oh…important…he wants to study Art with perhaps a minor in math or computer science.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There’s got to be something more than meets the eye here! At lease give some explanation on why girls are more self-selecting. This was not slightly more selecting statistically; it was quite a bit more self-selecting.</p>
<p>I also remember that MollieBatMIT reported that test scores were less predictive of success at MIT than they were for men, so it is not unreasonable for MIT to accept young women with slightly lower test scores since once at MIT they perform at the same level or better than the young men.</p>
<p>PaperChaserPop,</p>
<p>Those were the GC’s recommendations for her, not what you and I might call a fit school. To avoid confusion I shouldn’t have used the word fit, the quotation marks were meant to indicate a vaguer description. But still, the results show the GC missed the realities of the results, at least pertaining to last year’s applicant pool.</p>
<p>As far as the waitlist schools were concerned, I feel she could have gotten into those schools with a little marketing in my D’s part. However, by that time the scholarship was offered and we knew that it would have been a huge expense to make a (debatable) step up to Wake, for instance, which would certainly have been full-pay off the waitlist.</p>
<p><a href=“3”>quote</a> are kids who don’t sweat the small stuff like missing the occassional homework assignment or deadline…But for kid type (3) does your experience show that getting a somewhat unmotivated kid into a university with really bright and ambitious people helpful or counterproductive?
[/quote]
Samclare – Your definition on (3) does not say anything about being unmotivated. “Missing the occasional homework assignment” may not necessarily indicate a lack of motivation. If (3) is as you defined, then DougBetsy’s post #676 answers your question.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How do you plan to “push” him? About the only thing you can do now (as is the case for the rest of us :() is to encourage him to get better grades this semester, unless he plans to enter in a major competition. This said, if your son wants to apply to CMU or WUSTL, I’d say support him.</p>
<p>Whenever they say “it’s more self selecting” it translates into “we need more people from that group, so we will admit more of them.”</p>
<p>Well, what do you expect the colleges to say “we will take those with (insert male genitalia here for schools like Vassar or Female genitalia for Tech schools) even though they are less qualified?”</p>
<p>I’m another parent with a junior. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Just before reading sclark’s post, I’d been thinking about studies that show that kids who got into Ivys but went elsewhere do as well in life as their peers who went to Ivys. There are so many perfectly qualified kids don’t get into tippy-top schools because there are only so many seats. My D1 won’t have the GPA to get into one of these schools, but I know that her intellect and work ethic would certainly allow her to flourish at them. That’s probably true for many (all?) of the kids mentioned in this thread. Like DougBetsy mentioned, the hardest thing about many of those schools is getting in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not to mention kids who (4) attend highly demanding schools with deflationary grading. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>samclare, you (better yet, your son) should visit or call the honors program at the school and ask about how he could petition to get into the program. Some honors programs are not as doctrinaire about admissions requirements. Rather like the Pirate’s Code, more of a set of guidelines. 
They especially like it when the student is the one arguing that they want to undertake more demanding work. </p>
<p>Also, you mentioned the either/or of a CMU/WUSTL reach vs the second tier state school. There must be options in between these two extremes! It looks like you’re a relatively new member to CC, so you mght not yet know the second most important mantra of the parents’ forum: Love Thy (financial and admissions) Safety. If your son wouldn’t be happy at the state U, even in the honors program, it’s not a true safety. The hard work is finding those schools. This thread is more like dessert than the main course.</p>
<p>Paperchasepop:
"push"was a poor choice of words. CMU is **his **first choice (I think mainly because he loves pittsburgh as a city and is a Steelers fan). WUSTL was a suggested alternative from me as I am more familiar with midwest schools than he is. I think what I am asking is whether a reach university (reach because of grades and, potentially, motivation) but not a reach in terms of academic preparation is a good fit for such students. Is it wise to “support his application for CMU or WUSTL” which may mean (if admitted) also supporting a $50,000 per year payment? Just because he can get in and we can pay for it doesn’t mean that it is a good use of money. I look at it this way. If a kid is not sufficiently motivated to get homework and assignments in consistently on time (although he has the smarts) is he perhaps not really motivated enough to succeed at a T-20 university? I have pointed out that while he is fortunate that money need not drive the decision, cost should, nevertheless, be an important factor in the decision. I want him to be able to answer, where do you think you will get the best return for the investment? Where is the best place for you and why?</p>
<p>slitheytove:
Apparently CMU and WUSTL are probably not such big reaches as you would think. CMU places 50% emphasis on the portfolio for art students. DS’s is very good apparently and has won a lot of awards. WUSTL is also keen on admitting art students to serve as counterpoints for all of the pre-meds that make up the rest of the student body. But you are right that these two are reaches due to his grades (which may reflect his ability to succeed) and that is why, if he gets in, I am not sure if he should go to one of them. </p>
<p>His true saftey is Virginia Commonwealth U. My son emailed VCU about their honors program–no dice–the 3.5 is sacrosanct with no chance to take into account senior grades. They don’t care about his art, his 11 ap/ib classes, his National Hispanic Scholar status or high SATs.</p>
<p>Other universities he is considering are UW-Madison and Temple U. they both have strong art programs. There are also some art schools: RISD, MICA, and SAIC where he will very likely be accepted but grades and scores really aren’t an issue there.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Don’t give up just yet. I remember reading, (NYTimes Education Blog, I think), that the high school graduating classes of '08 & '09 were numerically the largest in history. They are the “pig in the python” of higher education. With 1.2 million graduating seniors each, the last two years have been the most competitive simply because there have been more applicants than ever before. </p>
<p>The article went on to say that the 2010 and 2011 classes are smaller. It may not be a huge drop but there should be less total competition going for the same number of spots. It may be smarter to start comparing our kid’s stats with the results from the '05 & '06 classes which are closer in size to the coming years.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That sounds like a reason not to go there unless he’s forced to. Typical bureaucratic public-school BS.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone has mentioned the contents of the “black box” we’ll never get to open: recommendations from teachers and counselors. I have a hunch that some kids in this category of lower grades/high scores are not of the people-pleaser variety, or - like my son - did not participate avidly in class discussions. (He always waited to see if his point was needed in the discussion, and refused to make the obvious point.) For many of these kids, their recommendations might damn them with faint praise if the teacher senses the kid could have tried harder, cared more, played the game better. And if that’s the case, you’ll never know if it was the GPA or a tepid rec or something else that keeps a kid out of the admit pile. </p>
<p>My son, who applied 2 years ago, had great SATs: M 800, CR 800, W 750, Math II 800, Lit 750, etc. NMF. Very interesting but unstructured creative-type EC’s. But his 3.4+ GPA came from taking the hardest classes at a rigorous school with serious grade deflation. He also had a bit of the #3 approach to school, and had terrible handwriting,and hated to show his work on math. He was denied by Dartmouth ED (where he applied because he loved it, and we believed that Dartmouth valued SAT scores more than some other places). He was also denied or waitlisted by a few very selective LACs. As is so often the case though, he is ecstatic about where he ended up: the film program at USC (which also was a huge reach, with about a 5% acceptance rate). He had to cajole his way into the honors program, where he is flourishing with the 200 top kids from his year. He also loves being away from the pressure cooker environment of his prep school, and getting to know kids who have had really different life experiences outside the academic bubble. </p>
<p>I’ve followed this very interesting thread because my D is a current senior, and is going through all the angst about whether to apply to a couple big Ivy reaches, or go ED to one of the other T-10 colleges where she’s being recruited for her sport. Better grades than her brother, and a 35 on the ACT. Great EC’s. A much easier kid to market (although I’d like to hire hyejonlee to put together the package :))</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>By golly, I think you’re right! Funny that it has escaped discussion until now.</p>
<p>In addition to test scores, this is the other thing I really hope carries a lot of weight in admissions. My kids are the type that teachers seem to really appreciate—a nice balance of serious, good-natured, and confident. (They’re not always so confident; they just come across that way to adults because they don’t shy away from interaction with them.) I’ve often heard from teachers, “Your son/daughter is such a joy to have in class”…usually right before they get a B.</p>
<p>I really hope this translates to good recommendations, and that adcoms really read them.</p>
<p>Based on several schools we have visited, here is my impression of ranking of importance:</p>
<p>1) GPA and ranking
2) Recommedation letters
3) Essay
4) E/C
5) Standard test scores. </p>
<p>Of course, the test scores must be within certain range.</p>
<p>I think this tip the advantage to those high schools who consistently send students to higher ranking universities. The teachers and GC simply have more experiences in writting these letters. </p>
<p>In a larger school, how much the GC knows you becomes a critical matter. I have seen/heard students with less than 2100 in SAT but very well written RLs got into very top schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>By all means, support him on his app to CMU. Unless financing is an issue, don’t deny your kid the application to his first choice school. I don’t want my son to say to me 20 years from now - “Dad, if you had let me apply…”. Let’s all have a peace of mind.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does he skip assignments even in the classes that he likes? If so, he may have a non-trivial discipline issue. I’d challenge him to turn in every assignments from now on. If he accepts the challenge, then let him know that you’ll pay for his reach school if he gets in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’d focus on the second question. The first question may have an unintended negative overtone for kids of his age.</p>
<p>CMU’s statistics for the art school are very different from the other parts of the university, and you are right, the portfolio is critical. I don’t know enough about art school admissions to know how predictable they are, or if you can get a sense ahead of time that you have a top-notch portfolio. CMU is a great school where a minor in comp sci should be possible, as a opposed to a stand alone art school. There are also lots of schools with decent art departments, where you can major in art without actually getting a BFA. (That’s what I did essentiall, though my art department included architecture and film courses, and I went on to grad school in architecture.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Knowing this and wanting to maintain application numbers and selectivity, the top colleges beefed up international recruitment several years ago. They have successfully raised awareness/interest from this pool and numbers applying will be unlikely to drop.</p>