<p>PaperChasePop said: “One outstanding accomplishment, especially at the national level, out weighs many many other activities. Quality before quantity.”</p>
<p>Would you say that would include being an NMS finalist or semifinalist?</p>
<p>One comment on the 32,000 slots at top schools: You also have to bear in mind that a substantial number of high-stats kids will not look at those schools for various reasons. They will look at LACs, they will want to go to honors colleges at state flagships, they will insist on going to Reed, etc.
Personally, I think there are at least 40 schools in the top 20, anyway, if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>Dinmor - NMS finalist or semifinalist achievement is important at many colleges, especially ones that offer scholarships tied to NMS. Some even offer full-ride scholarships to NM finalists.</p>
<p>But, it is completely irrelevant to the T20’s. The tippy-tops aren’t even flinching at perfect SAT scores, let alone good PSAT scores.</p>
<p>When 15,000 get the designation, I wouldn’t consider it outstanding national level achievement for the purpose of this thread. The same applies to AP Scholar awards.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes. That is EXACTLY it!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not even close. Almost all credible unhooked applicants at these schools have the designation, 90 plus percent of whom won’t get in.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with PCP on this particular AP AWARD:</p>
<p>National AP Scholar</p>
<p>Granted to students in the United States who receive an average score of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and scores of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams.</p>
<p>there aren’t many who have achieved NATL AP Scholar by the end of their Junior year.</p>
<p>I’m picking up on two different approaches in this thread. Actually, there are more than two, but what I’m noticing is a difference between a sub-3.6 kid who is interested in a few schools that happen to be T20 (in the more expansive “40 top 20 schools” kind of way), versus a sub-3.6 kid who is interested in attending A T20 school. The approaches that work for one aren’t necessarily what will work for the other. </p>
<p>bovertine, that’s a great Caltech story.</p>
<p>menloparkmom –
Re: National AP Scholar – from your mouth to the adcom’s ears!
There are ~800 (IIRC correctly) nationwide who have earned this at the end of junior year.</p>
<p>Good observation, slitheytove.</p>
<p>My S was one test shy of making National AP scholar by the end of junior year. He made a conscious decision to take a Linear Algebra class instead of AP Statistics. Again, this year, Multivariable Calc, intead of AP Statistics. Since he’s aiming for something in the sciences, this makes sense and will make him stand out more.</p>
<p>Maybe one reason AP scholar doesn’t quite get the exposure is that it is very school dependent. DS’s public HS only has total of 6 AP classes (one is Spanish), and no one takes any until Jr year when they take one. I’ve never heard of a kid taking more than one as a jr. as there are ‘prereq’ etc. I suspect that in the vast majority of HS in this country, scenario is not much different than ours. So I think maybe one of the reasons there are so few scholars may have more to do with access to AP classes as much as student ability/drive. As opposed to NMSF which is available at every HS.</p>
<p>I’d never even heard of such a thing until a couple of months ago…</p>
<p>Here are my reasons for not counting AP Scholar awards as significant national level achievements.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>AP material is only at a first year college level, regardless of how many AP’s you take. While having a lot of AP’s is impressive to the general population, it simply does not stand out among the T20’s.</p></li>
<li><p>AP is still just regular curriculum work. One can do well in them without involving much creativity or unknown risks. Like other core curriculum high school classes, there is a clearly defined path to getting a good grade and a good AP score. Study hard, you’ll get there. So, the significance is already factored into your GPA’s.</p></li>
<li><p>The number of AP tests you take usually reflects the policy and resource strength of your high school in addition to your caliber. Once again, the latter is already factored in the class rigor designation from the GC’s.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Phew, here I was knocking my head about yet another national honor that we have no hope of ever achieving, even for young DD who will be better prepped than her older brother was through HS.</p>
<p>Linear Algebra and Multivariable Calc are the first year college courses and just pre-req courses for Math or Science majors. </p>
<p>These courses are much eaier to handle for some math oriented kids than some of humanity or language APs.</p>
<p>Is it true that taking these courses make a student stand out?</p>
<p>“it simply does not stand out among the T20’s.”
Then why does Harvard have a place on their application to list AP scores?And why did the Head of admissions at Harvard specifically say in the recent NYTimes blog that they DO look at AP scores?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, they are typically taken in the second year of a math major. They are only first-year courses if you have already taken calculus in high school, and let’s take off our CC hats just long enough to realize that most kids don’t.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, it does. Very few students attend high schools that offer these courses, and fewer still actually take them. It’s a big deal when adcoms ask, “Has this student taken the most challenging courses available?”</p>
<p>Edit: I imagine it’s a bigger deal if the student is applying to a big-time math/science school like MIT. Possibly less so at a top LAC, but I don’t know.</p>
<p>There are many great high schools that offer no APs though many kids take the tests. My DS son was a junior year AP Scholar at a school that offered none. Shocked to hear this is only 800 kids, but I still don’t think it’s anything big at these schools. In the end they see a ton of candidates with lots of 5’s. Does it really matter when they got them?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It certainly adds to a very rigorous schedule. But the T20 get a disproportionate number of applicants from the top prep schools which do offer these classes. These school also usually offer foreign language and other humanities classes more advanced than AP and very advanced science as well. So if we’re talking really rare in the world of top colleges–not so much.</p>
<p>For whatever my opinion is worth, I don’t think AP classes are especially impressivegood, certainly, but not awe-inspiringbut I think a good score on an AP test when the student has studied the subject independently is VERY impressive. That’s the kind of self-motivation and discipline I imagine the top schools are really looking for. (And that my son lacks, alas.)</p>
<p>I think anything that is as rare as 800 students in the country has got to mean something. </p>
<p>However, (and granted I know little about this), it’s possible that this AP National Scholar does not have the same panache as say, USAMO or Siemen’s top winner is because it is not competitive and therefore not limiting.</p>
<p>USAMO is around 500 students, but from the students who participate in the AME that’s all there is. You are competing against the best and it is you agianst somebody else, much like in admissions.</p>
<p>Theoretically, any number of highly motivated and intelligent students could take 8 AP exams and get scores of 4 or higher if they had the opportunity and were so inclined. It would be hard, but it isn’t limited to any set number.</p>
<p>And this is the point in the conversation where I make my PSA that one can make Intel STS finalist, USXXXO finalist, etc. and it STILL does not guarantee admission into an Ivy.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove, S2 definitely falls into your first category. Couple of the schools he really likes are highly ranked. Would be nice to have a good range of options come April. He doesn’t put any school on his list unless he could see himself attending, and he has already nixed some as being too reachy to mess with. He doesn’t like disappointment, and I think he’s right in limiting the potential carnage. Next April, I want him to be HAPPY with his choices, not moaning over the rejections and thinking he failed.</p>