<p>I feel your pain mantori, but I have to agree with Hunt. Selective colleges want aptitude for the complex AND discipline for the mundane.</p>
<p>I would argue that it’s only an important life skill because the people in charge are not the smart ones.</p>
<p>Anyway, I don’t send my kid to school to learn “life skills”. I send him to learn mathematics, science, literature, history, etc.</p>
<p>I don’t intend to start a thread-hijacking argument on this subject. I’m letting it drop unless someone else decides to pick it up.</p>
<p>EDIT: And I’m sick and irritable today, which clouds my vision. I don’t mean that being smart and being well-organized are mutually exclusive, etc.</p>
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<p>The calculator is only an approximation. It looks to me like class rank is the preferred measurement for grades in this calculator, and if you put in anything less than “top quintile” for rank, it is almost impossible to get a high score without perfect scores on the tests.</p>
<p>but I will say that your kid must have almost perfect scores, because it’s tough to get up to “very likely” on this thing with a 3.5 GPA unless yuo are pretty near perfect.</p>
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<p>Ditto on the pain and the discipline.</p>
<p>It’s the same with employers. I tell my kids that you don’t usually get paid just for being smart, you have to produce.</p>
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<p>I agree. And I think this is one of the many reasons the ivies still have a disproportionate percentage of wealthy kids. The ability to choose–and pay for–learning environments where your child would thrive is incredibly limited in this country.</p>
<p>In places like NYC, many families who can afford private schools have each of their kids at a different school. They look for fit early but most don’t get to before college.</p>
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<p>I’m really not sure what you’re worried about paperchase. Then your son must have a good rank with his 3.6ish GPA. Other than HYPS, what really matters is rank and scores. An excellent application can illuminate an EC that will suffice.</p>
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<p>Welcome to life.</p>
<p>mantori – Hope you feel better soon. Half of my family, including myself, is also under the weather.</p>
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<p>I sure hope I’m not adding additional worries to myself here ;). Son’s school does not give class ranks, but when I asked the GC whether my S falls in the top 10%, she said she thinks so. </p>
<p>I think the calculator is too lenient on GPA. I can’t find the incoming class average unweighted GPA for most of the T20’s, but the one I did, the average is above a 3.8. I get the same feeling from reading all the acceptance threads. Frankly, I’m not so sure one can just count on the class rank as long as the class rank is good, and forget/forgive the low GPA. I’d like to be convinced otherwise.</p>
<p>For example, if John has an unweighted GPA of 3.5 and a top 10% class rank in a senior class of 800 and Dave has an unweighted GPA of 3.8 and a top 20% class rank in a senior class of 100, does John get the tip over Dave when all else being similar? Somehow I’m afraid that an unweighted GPA below 3.7 is an eye sore to the tippy-tops, regardless of class rank.</p>
<p>May be I‘m focusing on HYPS without realizing it. May be my thought is that by positioning S for the highest tier, his candidacy will be made even stronger for the others.</p>
<p>^^^ I think the calculator makes it pretty clear it prefers rank over GPA (I’m presuming because GPA is unreliable). Obviously, a high class rank with a low GPA implies either grade deflation at a tough school, or a poor school with poor students. I think they know these statistics about high schools.</p>
<p>If your kid has 780+ on all these tests, and is in the top 10% I’d bet $100 he could get into a top 20. Maybe not HYPS but somewhere.</p>
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<p>Have you asked for a copy of the school profile? If it’s like most, it will give you enough info to know where he is.</p>
<p>Most counselors know the answer, but I think the key reason many schools don’t rank is because they don’t want to deal with the subject with kids and parents. They know the colleges just figure out the rank anyway.</p>
<p>To the parents of children who are not yet seniors, please encourage your kids to open doors on their own and do so regardless of their school grades. It is fine to help your kids find opportunities through your connections, but nothing makes kids more confident and proud than finding opportunities and accomplishing things on their own. They will work extra hard just to prove to themselves and their parents that they can succeed on their own terms.</p>
<p>DS1 just got assigned the full responsibility to develop and test a bio research project at a prestigious lab. This type of jobs is normally assigned to graduate students and postdocs. He got this job on his own. He wore a big smile all-day after receiving his photo ID. “You and mom won’t be able to come to the lab, because it is in a restricted area.” He said this with a victorious grin. His dream came true.</p>
<p>This turn of event gave me a new perspective on college selection. He is absolutely fortunate to have this internship, and he wants to continue on this path. I can see him working in this lab for a very long time. We will spend more time looking at local colleges in more depth than we had originally envisioned. Finaid aside, DS1 may seriously consider turning down a remote T20 in favor of a local second tier school, so he can continue his research work.</p>
<p>I guess I need to quickly get used to my son being in the driver’s seat. In response to the take home “brag sheet” question of a list of son’s major accomplishments, I wrote down “Maturing into adulthood”. I’m a happy dad this week.</p>
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<p>How kind of you, not to mention clever. But school is not work, and, as I said, I don’t send my kids to school to learn how to jump through the right hoops to earn a paycheck. I send them to become educated, and I have a low tolerance for teachers who can’t tell the difference. If my kid demonstrates that he has learned history better than every other kid in his class, then I damn well expect him to get an A in history, not a B because his notebook was messy. That’s small-minded.</p>
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<p>We asked and the answer is no.</p>
<p>“The calculator only takes into account GPA, class rank, and test scores.”</p>
<p>For most anyone involved in an institution with significant applicants, the criteria is mainly GPA, class rank, and test scores. To assert the calculator is weakened as it “only takes into account GPA, class rank, and test scores” is a failure to see the limitations imposed upon overly worked admissions counselors. And, unlike recommendations, these statistics tend to be more quantitative than qualitative – hence having more neutrality and perhaps being better gauges.</p>
<p>If your GPA, class rank and SAT scores don’t make the cut, it is relatively safe to say the essay and rec’s will not deliver you to the top schools. I would have to believe that only those with extraordinary other skills (sports, arts. . . ) can manage admission even if GPA, class rank, and test scores are out of the calculator’s range.</p>
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<p>I think my post was a little confusing. What I meant to say is that I was surprised that the calculator gave me a good result after feeding it only the “hard” stats. I know my son’s strength is really in his EC’s which was not even a factor in the calculation. </p>
<p>FotB, I share your view on the process – see my post #731.</p>
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<p>LOL, you sound like my son. </p>
<p>I see your point - I think that’s why a lot of college professors just give exams. But I still think that learning to be somewhat organized and disciplined in your approach to work is paramount for career success and what better place to learn these skills than in school.</p>
<p>Over the years, I have seen some very, very smart people - people who were head and shoulders above everyone else - fail because they lacked the discipline to produce a quality product or even complete a project. It’s not only about knowing the material but about being about to produce something of value.</p>
<p>The people who are most successful in life are both smart and disciplined about doing the work. Being smart only gets one so far.</p>
<p>I do think this is why the top schools are looking for both good grades, top scores and great ECs. It’s the sign of a disciplined and driven person.</p>
<p>MomLive, I agree with everything you said. Thank you for taking a level-headed approach to the subject. Mind you, I am only mildly resentful of those who get A’s through a combination of intelligence and ability to do busywork. 
But I positively seethe with resentment of those who actually learn less, but get A’s anyway, primarily because of the busywork.</p>
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<p>mantori - I can relate to how you feel about this. Take a look at the grade descriptions from Harvard Extension.</p>
<p>A and A− grades represent work whose superior quality indicates a full mastery of the subject and, in the case of A, work of extraordinary distinction. There is no grade of A+.</p>
<p>B+, B, and B− grades represent work of good to very good quality throughout the term; however, it does not merit special distinction.</p>
<p>C+, C, and C− grades designate an average command of the course material.</p>
<p>D+, D, and D- grades indicate work that shows a deficiency in knowledge of the material.</p>
<p>E is a failing grade representing work that deserves no credit. E may also be assigned to students who do not submit required work in courses from which they have not officially withdrawn by the withdrawal deadline.</p>
<p>Clearly, an A requires “a full mastery of the subject” at Harvard. If you take it at face value, then no “busywork” should trump a failure to achieve full mastery of the subject.</p>
<p>I was “seething” when DS1 received a B for debate the same year he won the state debate championship. How much more “mastery of the subject” can there be?</p>
<p>I don’t believe any of these kids that get into the very top schools are going to do so on the backs of “busywork” or neat notebooks. They have high exam scores, neat notebooks, and great ECs. So I think you are complaining about a group of kids (if they exist) that are not in competition with your children.</p>
<p>In most of my kid’s classes it is impossible to get As without doing well on exams, which are weighted far more heavily than any other thing.</p>
<p>They exist, but I believe you’re right, for the most part they’re not in competition with the kids we’re discussing here.</p>
<p>And I certainly hope that adcoms at top schools can recognize kids who get A’s and are really great students versus kids who get A’s and just aren’t that bright. I assume the adcoms are pretty good at this, since we all know of kids with perfect grades who don’t get into top schools.</p>
<p>Okay, I’ve had my say on this subject. Thanks for your indulgence.</p>
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<p>Do you mean no as in you can’t have a copy of the profile? If so, that is beyond outrageous and the principal, the school board and I would be having a little talk about it.</p>
<p>Parents have every right to see it. That sheet effects your child tremendously and many schools do a poor job creating theirs. I would not dream of not having a look at this defining document if my child was applying to top schools.</p>