<p>Ok I have been hearing lots of BS lately of how your undergrad doesn't matter/matters little when you apply to medical school. I'll try my best to correct this rumor before people spread it even more. Well, here's some factual data I've managed to come across while browsing through the forums lately. ALL of them suggest the importance of your UG. In fact, all suggest your UG may be a very important determinant. Take a look:</p>
<p>JHU med has 40 people from Harvard and 43 from Yale (data towards middle-bottom of document). Other state schools (even some highly ranked ones) can barely muster 5. Heck, even some other ivies cannot come close. Is there not that many people applying from those schools to JHU? don't think so...(dunno why P didn't place that well at JHU. grade deflation? maybe...) </p>
<p>Take Vandy. Ok same deal here. Lots from HYP, and not alot from other places (even other ives). </p>
<p>Now for some anecdotal evidence: Mdapplicant files. A H guy with a 39/3.6 basically was littered with top 20 med acceptances, along with a few top tens. </p>
<p>OTOH, a guy with similar, if higher stats (41/3.6), more ECs, but from U of Houston only got into Baylor out of the slew of schools he applied. The difference is obvious. </p>
<p>It depends on how you interpret the data. I’m going to disregard your carefully selected mdapps profiles since individual anecdotes are worthless.</p>
<p>Let’s say you have two individuals with a 3.7/34. They both apply for a top med school (Harvard, JHU, whatever). The one from a top undergrad probably has a 8% chance while the one from the unknown undergrad has a 2% chance. On one hand, you can correctly say that both candidates have a low chance because med school is just that hard to get into. On the other hand, you can also correctly say that the candidate from the top undergrad has 4x the chance. Hence, it depends on how you want to look at the situation.</p>
<p>I think the reason most people conclude that undergrad doesn’t matter is because they see so many good candidates from top universities getting rejected and they also see so many good candidates from no-name colleges getting rejected. This has more to do with the fact med school acceptance rates are microscopic, rather than undergrad not mattering. I’ve always said, undergrad does matter (especially for top med schools).</p>
<p>In short: your chances of getting into HMS for med school is abysmal whether you are coming from Upenn or Penn State. But, they are not equally abysmal.</p>
<p>You’re looking at it as if it were black and white. For the U of Houston guy, we don’t know a) is he bad at interviewing? b) how late in the cycle did he apply? or c) how many times did he take the mcat? It says on the bottom this was his 2nd time applying. Perhaps he didn’t improve his application enough. Sure the MCAT is phenomenal, but did he have a 25 and a 28 before that? Probably unlikely, but possible.</p>
<p>There are so many factors that you couldn’t possibly gauge who is a better applicant from mdapplicants.com.</p>
<p>When the advice of “undergrad doesn’t matter” is given on CC, it is usually assumed that the person receiving the advice is a very good student. Basically we’re saying it is an advantage to be the big fish in the small pond. The reason that so many Harvard and Yale students get into medical school is because the student body is much stronger than the average state school, not because the average state school is in some way deficient in resources or teaching. We are talking about the Ivy caliber student attending the lower ranked school vs the same kid attending the Ivy, not the average Ivy student vs the average state school student.</p>
<p>Personally I do believe that undergrad matters. But that is just a belief unsupported by any data I have seen.</p>
<p>But OP, what your lists fail to show is mcat scores. And, since purposely selects its undergrad class based on test scores – not wholly, but they count a LOT, and are probably more balanced than some other schools – its students are already extremely bright and good testers. Also H has the highest mean LSAT score of any undergrad program. Thus, I have no doubt that H undergrads also do extremely well on the mcat. Good grades + good mcat = acceptance. </p>
<p>btw: Texas schools are a ‘bargain’ for instate residents, so that is probably not a great comparison. Many Tex kids would turn down H & Y for the local tuition, and to remain in the Republic. (Not everyone thinks the world revolves around the NE.)</p>
<p>I noticed some interesting comparison between students from the two schools. </p>
<p>1) Ranks:</p>
<p>The ranking is critically improtant for law school students. One almost has to go to T-14 schools to be able to secure a very good job.</p>
<p>Medical school ranking may be important. However, if a student is a big fish per schrizto, he/she could get a very good job.</p>
<p>2) Debt:</p>
<p>Law school students complain about the student loan debt way much more than the medical school students. (There are a lot of discussions on how to cheat the loan forgiveness offered by H/Y.)</p>
<p>Medical school students with higher debt than law school students appear to be more complacent and focused. </p>
<p>Just based upon these comparisons, I would congratulate all medical school students.</p>
<p>Med schools take more applicants from Harvard, Yale and other Ivies because they have a huge number of premeds compared to other colleges. I once read in a thread on CC that Harvard has 300 premeds. It is not that other colleges don’t have good students or aren’t qualified enough for med school. A few days back, I read that Liberal Arts Colleges bear 3% of all college students in the U.S. which shows that how insignificant the applicant pool from such colleges are. To sum up, this gives a false impression to everyone that Ivies always have higher admittance rate. </p>
<p>On the other hand, Ivies do give students quality education and opportunities for research, clinical work, etc. Normally, getting into an Ivy college would mean that the student has been hardworking since high school and would be continuing such an academic progress in college leading to higher GPA, MCAT scores etc. and therefore higher admittance to med schools.</p>
<p>I personally don’t know the ultimate and correct answer to this. I can only guess that med school admissions is very ‘holistic’ rather than just basing upon academics or the ‘Ivy’ stamp.</p>
<p>More than Hopkins (and Emory and WashU), which are known for premed? Uhh, HIGHLY unlikely. </p>
<p>And, you might take a look at Williams and other LACs. Premeds are EVERYwhere. I would guess that they total ~25% of an entering Frosh class at many colleges. 30%+ at Hopkins/Emory… </p>
<p>Think (critically) about it – if there were few premeds (relatively speaking) at other top colleges, students would soon figure it out and go there bcos there would be less competition for the A’s.</p>
<p>The goal is primarily to get into any Med. School. There are relatively very few who aim at Top Med. School, and I believe even in this group the primary goal is still to get into any Med. school. With this being said, is GPA=3.5 from Harvard better than GPA=4.0 from state school for getting accepted to ANY Medical School in the USA? Assumption is that GPA=4.0 as well as 3.5 from Hrvard would do reasonably well on MCAT since both groups have been working reasonably hard up to the point of taking MCAT and they would be smart enough to study as hard as they can for MCAT.</p>
<p>There is an interesting lack of precision here, wavering between acceptances into “med school” and acceptances into “top med schools.”</p>
<p>The OP used data from JHU - a Top med school? - to support his contention that the
undergrad institution mattered for acceptances into “med school” .</p>
<p>Yes, JHU is very Top Med. School and that is what this thread is discussing. However, I am not sure at all if this is very major concern. As I pointed out, I believe that the major concern is to get to any Med. School in the US. So, I agree we need to be clear if UG name is more imortant or combo GPA+MCAT if the goal is to get into any Med, School. Could you imagine anybody out there, who would turn down state Medical school acceptance because he did not get into JHU Med. school? I do not know anybody who would gave up going to Med. School if it happens to be not JHU, Harvard…</p>
<p>What is there to notice? Nothing, except the fact that your UG does matter quite significantly. The anecdotal thing should not be disregarded, rather there are hundreds of similar cases where a guy from H gets in to multiple top schools with lower stats than one from somewhere else. I can start listing profiles, but that would take too long. Compare these two, a guy from UM and from H. It so seems there should be more people from UM (b/c more premeds) at top meds, but thats just not the case.</p>
<p>The guy from U of M has equal, if not better stats, than H. But in the end, the H guy was wayyyy more successful. </p>
<p>At places like H, a 38+/3.8+ (and research/premed ECs) basically ensures at least one (likely multiple) Top 10 med schools, while at other places, those stats only qualify students to a more mediocre choice. Sure- there’s the student body thing. But then again, is H five times better in quality than UM? No. But it does overrep UM at those top meds 5:1.</p>
<p>Why is that U of M Medical school (not UG) is ranked higher than H. Med. School?
UG at U of M is not walk in a park at all. </p>
<p>backspace, you are still talking about acceptance to top Med. School. How about acceptance to any medical school. Believe me not every GPA=4.0 is dreaming to go to top meidical school, any medical school would do for most.</p>
In the time I’ve been lurking at sdn I have seen a couple of folks ask about declining an acceptance in favor of re-applying and getting into a “better” school. They have been drilled. Mercilessly. Had I been registered , I’d have drilled them, too. ;)</p>
<p>I have learned a few things in this process from my daughter’s travels this cycle and first among them is :</p>
<p>1) There are no bad US allopathic medical schools. Zero. (There may not be that many bad osteopathic medical schools, either …but I digress ;).) Every one of them will give a motivated student the opportunity to practice medicine. </p>
<p>My D interviewed at schools ranked from Top Ten to un-ranked and she was impressed with all of them. The worst review she had of any school she visited was “In 10 years this will be a great medical school.”</p>
<p>backspace – you speak in the broad categories of undergraduate schools and graduate schools and then the only undergraduate schools you mention are Harvard and Yale and UM and the only medical school you mentioned was JHU. This is kind of a limited selection to draw conclusions about all undergraduate schools and all medical schools.</p>
<p>There are other schools and most people can’t get into Harvard or Yale.</p>
<p>This is an important distinction to make. I think if you plotted GPA vs. acceptance rate to med schools the curve would flatten out after 3.8. In other words, there is marginal benefit to having a GPA above 3.8. I personally believe top undergrads are harder than normal colleges, even after you factor in the grade inflation (there are GPA/MCAT charts that support this idea). But, for the best applicants, the ones who would’ve gotten 4.0’s at state schools, getting a 3.8 at Harvard is not bad because you get all of the other benefits Harvard has to offer including name recognition (which is impt for admission to prestigous med schools). Hence, I’d rather have a 3.8/37 from Harvard than a 4.0/37 from a no-name college, all things being equal if I’m aiming for a top 20 med school.</p>
<p>However, for borderline or average applicants, this 0.1-0.2 GPA depression does matter. There is a big difference b/w a 3.8 and a 3.6, and b/w a 3.6 and a 3.4. So, for these applicants, going to a top undergrad might actually hurt them. Of course, there are other benefits to going to elite private colleges that might help negate the more difficult academics. So, for applicants who are aiming just to get into med school, it’s probably a wash.</p>
<p>I’ll go tell my medical school that they should kick me out for not going to a better school. You haven’t proved anything, the data shows a correlation but it does not show a causation. It is also possible that the data suggests that the people who get into top undergrads are able to get into medical schools and are driven enough to make use of resources to aid them. Your data also mostly points towards HYP rather than all top undergrads. For example, JHU has more ASU students than Amherst despite Amherst having as large or larger pre-med applicant pop. ASU also has more than Carnegie Mellon,UPitt and Case Western, once again despite having less than 100 applicants a year. Many top undergrad students take time off before applying to medical school, in part because they have the opportunities and the advising to push them in that direction. You also can’t take into account gender and race based on the data mentioned. For whatever odd reason, less than 1/5 of the kids in my class from HYP are white or asian men. Undergrad does matter some, but not because of name. It matters in terms of opportunities and the ease of obtaining them. If I had gone to an Ivy League I’m pretty confident that I wouldn’t be at the medical school I am at. I chose a school based on the opportunities that suited me and it allowed me to perform to the best of my ability. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that you aren’t going to change opinions and no one is going to change yours.</p>
The OP is a high-schooler. I have some hope. Hey, at least they are looking at some “data” even if they are mis-interpreting it. That’s more than most are doing. </p>
<p>Just so my vote gets counted - I believe the big-name UG helps in admissions to any med school , both in compensating for a lower than expected GPA or a lower than expected MCAT. Do I think it matters a lot? No, but sometimes the difference between an interview invite and crickets is not much either.</p>
<p>Many people are skeptical at first about the statement of undergrad name not mattering much in med school admissions, but it’s true. This is something that’s said by medical students, doctors, etc on both CC and SDN, and I agree with it. The OP here is in high school, takes some data which he interprets himself, and then declares his conclusion like he knows so much more about med school admissions than people who have actually gone through the process.</p>