Engineering is hard everywhere, including all of the schools you mention. Students will have harder classes and a higher workload than their friends in other majors at every program in the nation. Our son ended up at Cal Poly, and I can assure you it was plenty challenging.
When I use the word “grind” I’m referring to a very specific thing, overtly stressful high volume that doesn’t seem to produce better engineers for enduring it. There are a handful of schools that carried this reputation that were outliers in their percentages of suicides. At the time my son was applying, Mines was one of them.
I have no idea if the reputations are or were ever accurate. He had so many good options, that anything that he could use to narrow the list was. Don’t eliminate Mines based on what I posted. It’s unsubstantiated.
I would encourage your student to reach out to current and former students at any of the schools on their list if that’s a concern to see if they can get a more accurate picture. At the end of the day though they’re going to have to narrow down to one, by eliminating the rest of the schools on the list, all of which are good. Just be reassured that no school is perfect and they will be well trained at any of them.
This reply stood out for me on that Reddit thread; all of the current engineering students I know (own DD at Clemson, TAMU, NCSU, CWU, UA, UAH, MO S&T…) are all stressed. The curriculum doesn’t leave a lot of room for electives, and there’s pressure to stay on track for course sequencing because of co-op scheduling. HW always seems to be due Friday at Midnight. The pressure of the impact of a “C” in a 4 or 5 credit class gets to her. DD always looks depressed; always has. She’s not; she just looks that way. She’s a true introvert, as are the other engineering students we personally know. Put them together and they scream, laugh, and smile. Alone, not so much. The coursework is definitely challenging, but for the most part she enjoys the classes and loves the creative labs and her study time in the innovation center where she can print stuff out on the 3-D printers while she studies. Group projects are a struggle and always will be; as a type A introvert, she’d rather just do it herself. She’s learning it’s a necessary evil.
To be clear, I’m not talking about hard. I’m talking about environments that seem(ed) to be perfect storms for suicide, that produce no better engineers for enduring it. I pulled this from a subreddit in 2018. It encapsulates what I’m talking about. It’s a school of 7000 students.
“I’m opening up a discussion in order to talk about this because it doesn’t seem like very many people are. I found myself deeply horrified by amount of suicides in the course of a year. 5 young men with their whole lives ahead of them. If this be a testament to our current society, then so be it, but currently I refuse to believe that the school has done everything in its power to find some sort cause for these alarming numbers. Whenever the unfortunate deaths occurred, it appeared to me that only a copy paste email was sent out by the president.
I wanted to know what the rest of you think about all this. Obviously there is something clearly wrong.”
I agree with @eyemgh that engineering is hard everywhere but that some schools have a more intense, less collaborative vibe, than others.
My d is a chem e, 5 semesters through and finishing up her last co-op rotation next week. Fluids, separations, thermo, mass and energy, and all her pure physics and math courses are all behind her…lots of very hard courses. She finished the semester with her thermo, one of her mass and energy balance courses, two math courses, and her leadership comm course at our dining room table for the last 6 weeks because of Covid. She worked 14 hours day x 5 days/week and then probably 6 hours day on the weekends. Included in that 14 hours were watching classes, doing homework, engaging with her project teams, attending office hours and review sessions, and meeting with her club councils. Does she get stressed during exam time? Yep, I think that’s a given anywhere. But…we heard tons of laughter every single day. She loves what she’s studying, she enjoys the hands on collaborative nature of her program, and she loves her school environment. Even over zoom from home, that was evident.
Her school does a lot to promote mental health, on and off campus. More than 1/2 the students at her school are in the college of engineering and a much higher percentage if you include the STEM folks in College of Science, Pharmacy, Vet, etc… IMO, I think that helps because everyone is in the same boat in terms of work load.
That said, the university averages two suicides/year. That’s two too many. I don’t think that rate is different than in the overall population.
I would suggest your student contact current students at the universities they are interested in and ask the questions that are pertinent to them. Many times the admissions office can help facilitate this.
The students I know both at Mines and CalPoly are very happy there. The student I know best, who is like a son to me, would also win the happiest looking engineering student contest. He is a ray of sunshine. The colleague I work closest with these days is a Mines graduate and he is absolutely lovely (and smart and friendly and easygoing).
I’m very concerned and sad about all these students on Reddit that seem defeated by life (for a lack of a better expression). I hope it’s just a healthy way for them to vent anonymously. I loved my engineering studies (I was always mistaken for an Arts student so there may be some truth to the engineering-looking type) but I could also complain for hours about stuff I didn’t like, and yes I love complaining just not on the Internet. At our school it was quantum mechanics not fluid mechanics that rocked everyone’s world. After managing a passing grade I was just glad I hadn’t majored in Physics (my Physics major friends made fun of me because I always complained that you needed psychedelics to get through the class).
The engineering students that come my way are happy, well adjusted people. I don’t work in education, however, and I might be seeing a self selecting group. I don’t think it’s the education itself that is creating mental anguish for the students. I am not a mental health professional, however, and could be totally wrong.
I just read through that reddit article - i have an engineering kid - and someone said engineering is something like this – AP classes to AP (academic probation) through a pipeline aka gifted kid syndrome. My DH thought the physics classes were the toughest in his engineering program, so we tell our kid that those are about as hard as it gets.
i like the ideas above about good study groups; i’ll ask him about this at break.
I watched my engineer study in high school and don’t think much was different in college. She sat her butt in a chair (often in the library) and studied. Her methods didn’t change much whether she was studying math and chemistry, which she loved, or English or history, which she endured. Set a schedule, sit at a table and study.
Then I watched her study for the PE exam. She bought all kinds of study aids, set a schedule, and followed it while she was working full time. She had days she allowed herself for skiing or hiking, but only if her work was done.
That’s just her.
I’ve also watched art students pull all nighters to finish projects, theater kids working together and alone to meet impossible deadlines, kids in student government stressed to the max but loving every minute of it. Every field has its own struggles. Engineering has courses that most students would find hard, but I suspect an engineer would be stressed if in a different environment too, like taking Shakespeare or Latin. class.
I think my daughter had less stress in engineering than she would have had in almost any other field. She did not like English and writing long papers, so if she’d been a liberal arts major, she would have been miserable and stressed. Could she have done it? Sure,but why? Engineers may be stressed, but they are doing things they like so maybe it is ‘happy stress’?
Thanks for the clarification on your definition of grind. I think we were somewhat on the same page as I was thinking of it as “harder than it needs to be for no particular reason other than to be hard when it is already a hard major.” This could be because of the requirements and Mines does seem to have a more rigorous core than some other programs (STEM classes you have to take in your first two years regardless of your major). It could be because workload/Psets are bigger than they need be or because professors don’t teach the material well so students spend their own time learning the material. So my original question was trying to get a sense of whether Mines (or other schools) really do make engineering harder than at other/most places.
The related issue that you raise about the environment being a perfect storm for suicide isn’t one I was necessarily thinking about, although I can see how a “harder than it needs to be” program could correlate with this. I have seen these posts on Reddit and they do raise concerns. I have also heard that WPI has had a rash of suicides this year, so I am wondering what to make of that because WPI seemed to be a somewhat softer, gentler version of an engineering program.
Ultimately, I agree with all of the advice that the prospective student just has to do their research and try to find the right place for them out of their options. Thanks to all of you for the discussion!
There was a major uptick in suicides everywhere due to the pandemic. It’s been very sad to watch it unfold. Prior to that, there were just a few programs, primarily engineering, with that history. It’s very student dependent, as is the perception of the challenge. My advise is to know your student, make sure they know themselves, and realize there are LOTS of very good options out there. There are no unicorns. Good luck!
The path for a kid with the aptitude and interest to learn the fundamentals that are taught in an undergrad program is straightforward. Hard work, yes, particularly to fit within a 4-year schedule. But manageable.
Common things that throw this off track could be due to a bad fit (student in wrong discipline, or wrong college), a job that takes away from study time, and bad teaching (any “hard” undergrad class).
So, if there is confidence in identifying a toxic culture at a school, stay away. But to some degree, bad teaching exists everywhere. I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on suicides because those are more indicative of things that happen before college than a college’s approach to mental health.
@teleia that’s not the case for most engineers, and I majored in engineering at a college mentioned in this thread. And my experience was corroborated by many engineers I met who went to other colleges.
OP - you may have to prioritize 24/7 sports and smaller class size, it’s tough to find both. As others have mentioned if your son is ok with larger freshman and soph classes, the big ten flagships are your best bet - Purdue, UM, assuming you get in and can afford it, of course.
I appreciate your viewpoint. I still believe that labeling a whole undergraduate education as a grind does the students entering it a great disservice. Similar to calling math hard in elementary school.
If you don’t mind my asking, what was your experience as an engineering undergrad?
IIRC, thelioniusmonk went to both a premier engineering school AND a premier sports school. One of the “few,” where you can get both. I bet his/her experience was a ton of fun, when not studying his/her behind off.
As for Cal Poly, and other schools with a quarter system, the speed of the quarter system MAY contribute to the “grind.”
I was a Classics major and guess what- much of that was a grind. Developing competency in several ancient languages doesn’t come easy to everyone, but that’s a base level that’s required so you do it. I went to Business school and THAT was a grind. Some of it came easily, some of it was very new to me and was a grind. I have a friend who is an architect- he claims that’s the ULTIMATE grind. Most of the students in his program loved the creative elements, found the technical pieces very, very difficult. But if you want to design a museum that has the right balance of light and shadow, or design a train station that doesn’t fall down- you have to grind through it.
Why are we afraid to tell our kids that there are things that are a grind? Does everything have to be easy, or fun, or be entertaining? I’m sort of proud that my kids found disciplines to study where the grind was balanced by how gratifying it was to master something foreign and tough. Good value as far as I’m concerned.
Now that’s what I call a good time! I guess we’re splitting hairs.
Engineering is my specialty and I’ve read of problem sets due at midnight on Friday as an example of a grind. I just don’t agree with that definition. Housework for me is a grind but I guess there might be people that take pleasure in doing it. To each their own. I still don’t think that advertising undergraduate education as a grind is helpful to the students.
I think it’s misleading to tell kids that every minute in college is going to be fun, or that they won’t have to trade off personal time/socializing for studying. I think it’s MUCH more helpful to students to understand that college is tough. Or that some majors are tough. Or that some majors are easier, and if they are going to prioritize their social lives, majoring in Recreation Management might be a better path than majoring in civil engineering.
It seems like every kid I meet in real life is going to major in CS and get a great job at the next Apple or Google. Sure, it could happen. But for a kid that I know struggled mightily in Trig, or had two tutors to get them through junior year of HS, I think it’s a mistake NOT to explain to that kid that some aspects of CS are indeed- going to be a grind. What’s wrong about that? Not everyone is designed to do everything in life.
I’d love to dance for the Bolshoi. Would it have been helpful to let me delude myself into HS that this was a realistic path for someone whose height topped out at 5"3" and despite loving ballet, did not have the physical requirements necessary?
I have neighbors who call me to ask for “tips” for their kids MIT application. The Kid in question hates to read (MIT has a core- both humanities and social sciences, and you cannot get through the core without reading), is a middling math student, but LOVES computers. I get that. But that’s not MIT. There are dozens of colleges where a kid who struggles in math but loves computers can get an education AND get a job doing something with computers. But not majoring in CS at MIT or Cal Tech or Stanford (et al). I’ve learned that nobody wants to hear it. Their kid doesn’t want to hear that college is going to be a grind. So I wish the kid well and keep my mouth shut.
That preserves my social relations- but how does it help the kid?
You are describing kids (or maybe it’s the parents) that aspire to institutions they do not match with. Of course that is ill advised. And yes, there are so many examples of this on CC and in my own local community. I have also advised my kids and others that I mentor that college is hard because it is. Any life altering experience is difficult but it need not be miserable. Boasting about how little sleep one is getting, affirming that they are constantly depressed, getting destroyed by a B grade etc. are all attitudes that we as the older and wiser generation have instilled in our high achieving youth (did you see the Reddit thread posted above). I don’t think they are helpful. Call me idealistic, but learning (both academic and social) is one of the most joyful and rewarding experiences life has to offer. I advise young people to be happy for all the learning experiences they are afforded. One cannot learn without working hard but it’s equally hard to learn if one is always miserable (or the word our youth use now a days, depressed).
My slacker son is thinking about engineering. I have to talk him out of it lol.
But seriously, I see a lot of HS wonderkids just burn out about two semesters into college. NCSU is literally 10 min from where I live and I know many kids that go there. The ones that suffer the most almost always seem like the kids that had the best grades in HS!!
Also, there is almost this psychopathic tendency by faculty to literally try to kill kids in engineering and medicine. Almost like “we did it and now you have to suffer as well.”
Pre-med is inherently a ruthless weed-out process.
NCSU is one of those schools where first year engineering students must enter a competitive secondary admission process to their specific engineering majors after a few semesters of college courses, so that can make it a more competitive and stressful environment, at least before gaining admission to the desired major.
There are over 400 schools with at least one ABET accredited program. We labeled well under 10 as grinds, only one of which was mentioned here, and I can’t say with certainty any of them were justified.
A grind is a program that through pace and/or volume of work, makes the process far more stressful than it need be with no evidence it produces better engineers for enduring it. They have higher than average suicide rates.
My DH thought the physics classes were the toughest in his engineering program, so we tell our kid that those are about as hard as it gets.
I bet his/her experience was a ton of fun, when not studying his/her behind off.