Undergrad Options for Grad School

Graduate School
1

Hello,

I am a current college student at a tech college in Wisconsin. I am interested in knowing how important the name on my diploma will be for applying to grad school? I plan on transferring after this semester and declaring a double major in Philosophy and English. My end goal is to be admitted into a prestigious grad program (dream program being at U of Edinburgh or the like). My question comes in because I have the ability to attend a UW system school such as the University of Wisconsin - La Crosse, or UW-Stevens Point for free, quite literally. However, I am wondering if these high end universities will even take a look at me if I graduate from one of these colleges? This is of course assuming I do well in classes, and network myself and participate in undergrad research and the like (which is my current goal).

My other options would be possibly attending University of Minnesota, University of Maine, or (preferably) College of the Atlantic, however it would cost me more to attend than the UW system colleges; Madison is out of the question for me because of their required high school course policy.

Would I be okay going to one of these less known UW colleges if my end goal is grad school in a very prestigious university like Edinbrugh, Duke, etc, or would something like UMN, or COA be a better deal in the end? I’ve heard that 1) undergrad schools don’t matter at all and 2) that your undergrad school is absolutely crucial. Perhaps you can see where things can get messed up. :slight_smile:

Thank you for your help!

2

It really depends on what type of graduate school you want to do. Do you want to go onto a PhD program or a Masters program. How competitive is your field?

It’s unfortunate, but the reputation of your undergrad school does matter a lot in terms of getting into graduate school. This is for two reasons:

  1. The students you are surrounded, the degree of competition, and the quality of teaching and faculty. Your performance is affected by your environment and what is expected of you. You want to be pushed as hard as possible, without breaking. These factors also affects how professors can measure and stack you against others. Are you the best in your program, in the top 10%, etc. Being an excellent student at UW-Madison or Minnesota would be perceived as much stronger than being the top student a professor has taught for many years at a random school like UW La Crosse.

  2. You want your recommendation letter writers to be known to the graduate schools where you’re applying. Professors in many departments at UW and UMN are world renowned and if they write you a strong letter of recommendation, then you are basically set for whatever grad school you want. Professors at well known LACs are also well known.

If you’re applying for a not so competitive field like social work, teaching or nursing, going to the satellite state school should not affect your chances so much. Also, consider your future expected earnings when deciding how much debt you want to take on.

3

I agree, in general, with frontpage’s statements (except #2, which I’ll get to).

However, good students can go to top graduate programs from virtually anywhere. I went to a top 10 PhD program in my field (at Columbia) from a small, second-tier liberal arts college, and I had classmates who went everywhere from Harvard and Penn to the small regional public schools in their area. Graduate professors realize that not everyone can afford to go to Columbia or Yale or UMN or Michigan; they also know that very smart and accomplished students go to their local public regional universities all the time. What you do in college is far, far more important than where you go.

So yes, if you go to UW-La Crosse or Stevens Point but get involved - do research, do a summer REU, cultivate relationships with professors, develop your research interests and write a great statement - you can, indeed, get into high-end universities for graduate school.*

As for #2…well, it’s nice if your recommenders are known to the professors from your desired programs. But it’s not necessary. The vast majority of successful PhD students got letters of recommendation from someone the graduate professors have never heard of. It’s much more important what your recommenders say about you than the fact that they are famous. I’ve been a reviewer for the NSF graduate research fellowship before, which is similar to graduate admissions in some ways. I’ve read recommendations from very famous people in my field that were lackluster, and I’ve read amazing letters from people I’d never heard of before. The quality of the letter was MUCH more important than who it came from.

What is the cost differential between attending the UW branch campuses and something like UMN or College of the Atlantic? Sometimes it’s worth it to spend a little more to go to a better college, but if you have to borrow more than around $30K in undergrad or your parents are going deep into debt to send you there, then it’s not worth it.

*I am assuming you mean academic MS and PhD programs. Admissions to professional schools like an MBA are a little different, and I do believe more emphasis is put on where you went to college.

4

datefd, but I still think relevant, at least to Philosophy:

http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2007/09/applying-to-philosophy-phd-programs.html

5

Thanks for the response! Yes, I did indeed mean an academic graduate program, versus the professional program. And for the UW schools, that is what I have heard before, but again (as evidenced in this post even), there seems to be a pretty big divide in opinion. Out of curiosity today, I called Brown’s Philosophy department and the lady on the phone told me, in response to my question about the importance of the undergrad institution, that they “blot out” institution names to avoid any prejudice and that it does not at all matter where you attend for undergrad school (assuming you do well, and have a very good background, quite obviously). The same was more or less told to me by Duke, aside form the blotting out of institution names. This was a surprise with me, especially given their entering class statistics.

In terms of cost for me, the UW colleges are going to be free. I am dependent of my father for VA benefits here in Wisconsin, and UW system colleges get full tuition reimbursement. However, that being said, UMN, assuming I don’t pull out loans for living costs/expenses (off campus), would be about $8,500/year that my parents would have to pull out. College of the Atlantic would actually be quite a bit cheaper than even UMN, about $7,000/year total that my parents would have to pull out, including on-campus housing (this would be quite a bit cheaper, I believe if I again did not take out many loans to live off campus). This was surprising to me, as I thought that a LAC would be much more expensive that a university in which i am eligible for reciprocity (my saving grace for UMN). I also work for the federal government seasonally, which I believe offers some tuition aid.

Would you say going to COA or UMN would be a good investment if this is the case? I personally love the structure of COA; the Human Ecology major with being able to zone in on basically any interest I may have otherwise, plus I have been in contact with a couple professors and they have already expressed interest in working outside of class on independent studies and projects if I end up attending there this spring. I’m not sure how well-known they are, but the fact that they have been able to show that interest already has me pretty well sold. Plus, they currently have PhD candidates at schools such as Harvard ('16-'17 I believe) and Yale, so from what I can tell, they have a good placement standing at very highly rated colleges. Also, my Philosophy and Literature professors both thought it was a good program, since I thrive in small classes. The location is also ideal in every sense of the word. Conversely, UMN is decently affordable like I said, and honestly is an option I’d be open to. It’s a little less ideal for me personally, especially being in a giant city with a pretty high student/faculty ratio, but they have the programs I am interested in (Philosophy and English respectively) which seem to be well-regarded. so if it will yield better results for graduate prospects, then I would likely enroll at UMN; the trade off being the lack of close communication with professors, and the location… I come from a town of 450 people where our biggest high school sport was canoeing if it’s any correlation. I’d be interested in what you have to say on the matter. :slight_smile:

6

It’s also worth noting that I would love to get into academia. I’d love to be a professor, although that is a definite stretch given the current atmosphere and competition. However, being a publisher, writer, editor, researcher, working in public policy, business entrepreneurship, working with non-profits, or working in high-end positions in my current field (preferably the National Park Service or Forest Service),natural resources, going into law, working nationally/internationally in business, or any combination therein would be high on my list.

7

Edinburgh loves international students. I think it is around 40% international this year, and the uni wants to bring this number to 50%. If your GPA and rec letters are good, you will be good to go. I met someone who did masters program at Edinburgh from UDel, for example. Go for free tuition and get excellent grades as an undergrad. Philoshophy and English Lit is the most competitve subject at PPLS for undergrad, not sure about grad, though

8

I am suspicious of personal anecdotes from people, for a variety of reasons. As psychologists, we learn about the availability heuristic and confirmation bias: people tend to attend more to data that is easily available to them, and they remember data that confirms what they already believe and forget what doesn’t. So for the above post, we need to consider WHY there are fewer people from regional public colleges than from elite colleges at top PhD programs. A big factor is simple exposure and socioeconomic class: Students who go to Harvard and Amherst are much more likely to want to get a PhD in philosophy - or stumble into academia as a career field - than students who go to UW La Crosse or even Minnesota, because of the kinds of students schools like Harvard and Amherst serve.

And trust me, I’m not trying to say that UW La Crosse would be better than Minnesota or College of the Atlantic. One of the latter two would definitely be better, if you had unlimited resources. But most people don’t have unlimited resources. Most college professors realize that when they are doing admissions.

Also, bravo for you for calling the departments directly. A lot of undergrads don’t do that, but that’s the easiest way to get your questions answered about specific programs.

In my opinion, yes, although it depends on your family’s finances.

It sounds like you and your parents would only have to pay around $14-18K total for you to attend Minnesota or College of the Atlantic (assuming that you have two years left); you can help finance that with federal loans and other sources (e.g. Pell Grant, if you are eligible). In return, you will get a much better atmosphere for someone who is striving for a PhD and an academic career. Again, it’s not that you CAN’T go to a good school from a regional WI college; you can. But at Minnesota or CoA, there will be a larger community of students who have like-minded goals; your classmates will be more accomplished students; there will be more research going on around you to get involved; the professors will be higher quality, come from the kinds of programs that you want to go to, and have more connections. Those are things that can benefit you even if you change your mind and don’t get a PhD in philosophy.

But I don’t know how much of a hardship it would be on your family to come out of pocket for that, so you’d have to discuss it with your folks.