<p>Hey,
So, my dream grad school is the quantitative finance school at Chicago
I was wondering if Chicago offered special opportunities for sub-matriculation into its grad schools
If not, does Chicago take a lot of its own students into their grad schools, I've heard stuff about other schools not liking to take their own
since I want to go into econ/math, will Chicago recognize its own extreme rigor of both of those majors?
Haha, don't worry, this has absolutely no weight on whether my decision to go to Chicago, I was just very curious</p>
<p>I can't find anything in the course catalog that talks about BA/BS- MBA joint degree programs.</p>
<p>I wasn't wondering about the MBA,
I was wondering about the MSFM</p>
<p>Are there any current econ/math majors that know the answer to this? or have looked into it?</p>
<p>If you're planning for grad school before you enter college, i offer you my condolences...</p>
<p>The U Chicago portion of the site, is quite possibly, the most jam packed with intellectual snobbery and indirect answers forum ever</p>
<p>Sorry for having goals?</p>
<p>People apply to Wharton, Tepper, Haas, Ross, Stern with the intent of going into finance the second they enter college
No other university forum would bash me for going into college planning to be a quant jock</p>
<p>i agree with you, nblazer, but I don't think Absolut3 meant to be rude with his comment. I think it's easy to come off as snobbish or looking like you think you've got it all figured out already when you talk about planning on going to one of the toughest grad schools in the nation when you haven't even finished your freshman year of college (or even been accepted to college, as it may be).
Like I said, I agree that there is nothing wrong with you for planning out what you'd like to do in the future. In fact, it should be commended. However, just know that lots of things will change over the next four years, just like they have over your last four years.</p>
<p>sorry for rambling.</p>
<p>I've already been accepted to U Chicago undergrad,
I wanted to know if it offered opportunities to get a joint degree in MSFM as it offers joint degrees to other master degrees,
Its more a question about the college itself, just as Duke/Stanford/Penn offer extraordinarily flexible co-terminal degrees,
This is a question about the college itself, not so much the Grad school admissions
Are there any current U Chicago students that can tell me anything about this?</p>
<p>It's a question that's no difference then asking about investment bank recruitment, grad school feeders, med school placement... ect. ect.</p>
<p>If I recall correctly a few years ago the GSB, now Booth, began an undergraduate access initiative to open up some courses at the graduate school to undergraduates. I also seem to recall these were somewhat limited, but it might help one get to know the faculty at Booth, which might allow one to take or audit a course. It has been my experience that almost anything can be accomplished at Chicago if one really wants to pursue it and can find the right people.</p>
<p>I looked at the MSFM program. I looked up a couple of the courses and they seem to have some hefty prerequisites. I noticed that some of the courses are cross listed with other disciplines, Statistics for example. It might be possible, assuming one had the right background, to at least enroll in some of the courses featured in the program if not the program itself as an undergrad.</p>
<p>As Idad said, keep in mind that at any decent college/university, there is a lot of flexibility that is never outlined or discussed in the course catalog or other "official" documents. An academic unit at Chicago has tremendous flexibility in terms of who it admits, what courses count and don't count, and so forth. But they won't even begin to discuss anything with you until you've shown them what you can do in a Chicago like environment.</p>
<p>So focus on doing well in classes and getting to know faculty in areas of interest. Sometimes the latter is hard to do, but persistence, and willingness to volunteer time, can pay off. (as can a willingness to get to know the up an comers instead of the nobelists!)</p>
<p>There is nothing in the course catalog about joint BA/MSFM programs, which almost certainly means that there isn't one. I strongly suspect that there won't be one, or that it would be extraordinarily difficult to arrange, for the following reasons: </p>
<p>The MSFM program is clearly designed as continuing education for people in the financial industry, or people who want to change careers. All the classes are at night, it's set up for part-time students, etc. It looks sort of like a remedial credential, or a half-assed, limited MBA, not something someone would start a career aspiring to as a terminal degree, unless the plan was to be a math major at Southern Illinois, work for a couple years, and then get a Chicago credential through the MSFM program. The MSFM is also clearly a professional degree, and I think Chicago just doesn't do joint undergraduate/professional degrees.</p>
<p>Some of the courses -- maybe all of them, or almost all of them -- replicate material found in normal undergraduate and graduate courses in math, statistics, and economics, but the MSFM courses look narrower and less theory-based than the equivalent "normal" courses. The only courses that aren't clearly comprised in the regular curriculum are the financial applications courses taught by non-faculty. My instinct is that it's going to be tough to get college credit for these courses vs. the regular ones, or for these courses in addition to the regular ones, and tough to get MSFM credit for non-MSFM courses.</p>
<p>A BA/MSFM would look a lot different than a BA/MS in math, or a BA in math/concentration in economics, and those are what people are going to tell you that you ought to be doing as a University of Chicago undergraduate. The math/concentration in econ BA degree is probably as or more powerful in the marketplace than the MSFM would be, and open any doors you would want the MSFM for. The knowledge difference you would acquire by taking the MSFM program does not look that significant -- but maybe you could be allowed to take the financial applications course as an elective.</p>
<p>I may be reading this altogether wrong, but my strong suspicion is that the MSFM program isn't directed at people who are or were Chicago undergraduates (unless they were anthropology majors or something and wake up five years after graduation with a burning desire to earn a living). If you are entering the University of Chicago wanting to be a quant jock, you shouldn't need that credential, or you should want to be aiming at higher-quality credentials (PhD or MBA).</p>
<p>Wow, thats a ton of really good information :)
I am a prospective math w/ spec in economics
and the only thing that worries me about enrolling in Chicago is the lack of opportunities in undergrad to take any finance course, which has seemed to mess with a few of my close friends'/family members' abilities to land jobs in fields that they had always dreamed of
which is why its really important for me to plan ahead, I have seen way too many people close to be be screwed in the industry game due to certain conditions that had resulted from not planning ahead</p>
<p>I figured, that the ability to co-terminal in MSFM would be the perfect way to apply the Math with spec in economics to every day markets, and to fill in the lack of finance available for undergrad without having to wait for an MBA, and even then, I was under the impression that its not anywhere near a "half-assed MBA", but a completely different beast, geared towards specifically quant jocks, and is up there with the quant programs at Haas, Stanford, Columbia, and Princeton</p>
<p>I feel as though chicago would help out so many by offering a GSB undergrad certificate, but i guess they think that would ruin the "Chicago undergrad spirit"?
that being said,between the Chicago Careers in Business and 6 Finance courses in GSB would Chicago prepare me well enough to compete with Wharton, Northwestern, HYPSM, Duke when I'm eventually entering the job market.</p>
<p>The math and econ departments at UChi are why I love the school in the first place,
but i can't help but be worrying about my future and where I am going to be in 4 years</p>
<p>The thing about the finance part is that anyone in the industry can teach you that, but they can't teach you the math. People don't get hired coming out of college for their expertise at anything. They get hired for their intelligence, their work ethic, a basic skill set, and their willingness to learn. A couple of finance courses doesn't make you employable, it just shows that you have an interest in the field and that you know some basic concepts. Any real financial institution is going to insist on training you itself anyway.</p>
<p>If you are intelligent about your courses, your research projects, and your internships, you can get your ticket punched "finance" without the MSFM, at least at the entry level. You don't really even have to do that, though. One of my relatives has a great finance job now, and he knew absolutely nothing about the field until the day he started work. (He's a math PhD, and he got hired based on that and his poker playing ability. He was a University of Chicago physics major.)</p>
<p>Other posters here know a lot more than I about the ins and outs of getting finance industry jobs with a Chicago BA. (Assuming there still is a finance industry, and that it's still hiring. All those quants 10 years older than you? You know what they've been doing since they left college? Designing the mortgage-backed securities that essentially failed over the past year.)</p>
<p>Here is the description of how undergrads can take course at Chicago Booth: The</a> University of Chicago College</p>
<p>There are two ways to do this. One is the to petition to take the Grad courses at Booth, the other is to petition to take the "College only" sections (for undergrads) now offered at Chicago Booth. Here is a brief description of that program, and it looks like finance courses are available.
[quote]
UNDERGRADUATE ACCESS INITIATIVE
In recent years, students in the College could take advantage of business courses on an ad hoc and limited basis only. The access initiative offers undergraduates increased and systematic access to master’s-level courses at Chicago GSB. Dedicated course sections in accounting, entrepreneurship, finance, marketing, and strategy will be taught by regular GSB faculty. Ancillary programs, such as speaker series, panels, and specialized career services, will be explored and implemented as resources become available.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>^ and these are the formal ways. Responsible parties (GSB/CB faculty, college etc.) can make exceptions as they see fit. </p>
<p>In general, though, professional school courses (GSB/Booth, law school, med school) are much more difficult for undergrads to take. In fact, it is almost impossible for an undergrad (or anyone not a med student) to take a med school course, and difficult for outsiders to take law school courses unless one is dually listed, and I don't even know if they have any of those currently. </p>
<p>Part of the reason for these restrictions is financial - professional schools are their own budgetary units and guard their finances carefully. Chicago's med school is unique, though, in having much less autonomy than most - it is part of BSD, but its courses are so specialized that crossover is tough. </p>
<p>I emphasize again, though, that there are many alternate channels for gaining knowledge. It is not unheard of, for example, for a star undergrad (at Chicago and elsewhere) to do a project with GSB type faculty. You need to be open minded, hard working and agressive.</p>
<p>My third year in law school, I had one class that was open to undergraduates. It was a near disaster. The law students and the undergraduates generally despised one another and had completely different concerns and interests. They hated the way each other talked, hated the way they interacted with the professor, and resented it when the professor taught to one group or the other. Of course, there was some potential educational value for each group in confronting the differences between them, but most of the time people were too angry to take advantage of that. It wasn't a good idea.</p>
<p>JHS,</p>
<p>I understand. You articulate one reason why cross disciplinary/cross level courses are tough, and not often done. My D had a similar experience at UofC with a seminar course that had both undergrads and grads. </p>
<p>What you are more likely to see is a course dually listed for both upper division undergrad credit and lower level grad credit, or a course that bridges two disciplines (such a law and econ), but both listed at the grad level. Most of the time, the course catalog will mention dual listings.</p>
<p>What undergrads need to be aware of, and what I was hinting at above, is the flexibility that exists in any academic environment to do things outside the normal channels. For instance, if a student convinces a prof the student can handle a higher level grad course, the prof might let the student in, but enroll the student as an independent study student or something similar. </p>
<p>And even stranger things can happen. Summer after my D's freshman year, she was working on campus in a lab. Labmates suggested she enroll in a particular faculty member's seminar taught that summer. D talked to prof, who told her to do the seminar, and check with him at the end of the summer to see how she did. If she did well enough, they'd sign her up in the fall for an independent study course (or something like that - D did it, not me). She did well enough to get the credits with an A, and it did not cost extra either, since it was done as a fourth course in the fall quarter. </p>
<p>I never would have imagined they could or would do something like this, but it happens. The key is that a student must impress the faculty member enough that an exception would be made, and the student must be flexible enough to settle for knowledge, not a specific course number on the transcript. </p>
<p>Colleges in general like to keep undergrad education separate from grad education, and don't particularly like double counting of courses, but do sometimes develop joint BA/MA programs to meet particular needs. But again, it is dangerous to generalize, since so many exceptions happen.</p>
<p>I was a TA in a course that had undergrad, Ph.D. and Med students enrolled (a couple of Residents audited as well from time-to-time). It was cross listed in the departments of behavioral sciences (now psychology) for both the division of social science and biological science, psychiatry, and the college. There was no friction and we had a good time. The undergrads had nearly the same work and held their own quite well. </p>
<p>The College was purposely created without reference to departments. Professor who hold appointments in a department (which exist in reference to the graduate school divisions) do not necessarily hold appointments in the College (and vice versa). The Dean of the College makes those appointments. The idea was to encourage cross discipline collaboration in the College and that persists even today.</p>