My rising HS senior is set on majoring in Civil Engineering. We’ve been really impressed with the CE programs at TCNJ and Rowan- they seem to do a great job with smaller class sizes than Rutgers, have really well thought-out programs and have 100% job placement at graduation. Not sure Stevens has smaller class sizes. Any reason to go out of state to Villanova or Catholic U for CE? They seem to have nice campuses but it seems our NJ programs are better. We’ve been saving for college for years and do not have to factor this in the decision.
Two schools I’d add to your list are Lafayette College and Manhattan College (not in Manhattan), both with brand new centers for the integration of science and engineering on their campuses. Both are right across a river from New Jersey and both have been educating civil engineers for a very long time.
Lafayette is that rare college that integrates engineering into a classic liberal arts education. Located in the Delaware Valley town of Easton, Lafayette is a small (2700) liberal arts college where students work closely with professors (11:1 student:teacher ratio) and have lots of opportunities for research.
Manhattan, only a little larger (3300 and 12:1 student:teacher ratio), is located in the affluent Fieldston/Riverdale neighborhood of the northwest Bronx with 1300 acre Van Cortlandt Park at its doorstep. Ask about it’s Center for Academic Success which works proactively to insure that every student does in fact succeed.
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We just finished the college application season… we are also in NJ and looked extensively at Rowan for electrical engineering. Their engineering program is super impressive - new facilities, well thought-out curriculum, passionate and dedicated faculty. Great location, nice ‘downtown’, and excellent Honors program. Although DS ended up committing elsewhere, Rowan was one of the top of his list.
We toured Rutgers engineering campus, and it was just sad and depressing. I’m sure the program is good, but DS just couldn’t see spending four years there. They are planning on a full renovation/rebuild of their engineering facilities over the next 10 years, which gave us a bad feeling about the current facilities.
TCNJ… my DS didn’t care for it - it seemed like an extension of high school to him. However, everyone gets a different feel upon touring.
One thing that we did to look into the outcomes… go on LinkedIn, and look at the recent alum from each college. Search on the term ‘civil’ or similar in their profiles. You will see what companies the graduates are actually working for. Click on a bunch, and see where they interned or co-opped, and what their current jobs are. You will notice trends - a lot of electrical engineers from Rowan work for Lockheed, but barely any from TCNJ do. Very interesting. Helped us get a sense of where the graduates actually go.
Last thoughts… unless he could snag a spot at a top-ranked college for engineering, all of the other private schools weren’t worth the extra money over NJ state schools!
Another source of information regarding outcomes in terms of return on investment is payscale:
If you want to obtain information about a specific college without scrolling through the list, just enter the name of the school in the search box located upper right.
Self-reported data is not a very objective way of making decisions. Salary data is so heavily biased by geography that it is also not a great way to making decisions like this.
I’m not looking for a debate. It is what it is. Payscale is respected and widely used. You’re entitled to have your reservations, but most of what’s thrown out in these discussions is far more subjective, more easily manipulated, and biased by any number of factors. It’s a starting point for further investigation. Caveat emptor.
I do believe that the schools like Nova, TCNJ and Manhattan do a much better job at the Undergraduate Level Engineering classes than a Larger Research University by Rutgers. Smaller Class sizes, classes taught by professors (not just Lectures with Profs and TAs teaching the class).
For Civil Engineering, especially if he is interested in large construction projects I would second taking a look at Manhattan, on top of the New Engineering Building, the school has strong ties to the major Engineering companies in the city.
I know you said that money isn’t a consideration, but you may want to think about Graduate School as well. Although I have heard great things about Rowan, their program is relatively new, TCNJ has always had a great reputation for Engineering (and teaching)
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The issue here is that the average high school kid looking at this is not likely familiar with the caveats associated with a site like Payscale. It’s not a useless site, but you have to be up front about the caveats. One of those is that it is self-reported. Students who took a job for below average pay are a lot less likely to report into it. Another is that salary is heavily tied to geography, so the average salary from, say, the University of Maryland is likely to show up as being higher than Purdue University, but you really cannot draw conclusions from that about program quality.
Payscale is a data point, but I try to make sure young students are aware of the things to consider when using that data.
Judging by your username, I don’t doubt you feel that way, but it’s not exactly an unbiased opinion, either. Small schools have a lot of merit, and some students thrive better in that environment. Other students, though, thrive better at the large school environment. There are pros and cons for both types and a prospective student will need to weight them against their own preferences.
Larger schools do often (not always) end up with large class sizes and it can be hard for some students to find the personal attention and sense of community they need. However, that larger student body also represents a larger pool within which a student can find a good group of friends, results in larger alumni networks, and the larger programs (usually) offer a wider range of research for students interested in getting involved.
So a student “simply” needs to consider their options and the pros and cons of each type of school and make a choice based on their individual personality and needs.
I didn’t say money wasn’t a consideration. I said Payscale has some drawbacks that need to be considered when using their data.
I am not at all sure how that is relevant to graduate school. In general, you can get into a good engineering graduate school from any decent undergraduate program. Engineering is not as pedigree-focused as business or law.
Don’t know why it slipped my mind, but I would highly recommend that you add Stevens Institute in Hoboken to your list. It really is a special place. Compare it to the other places you visit and see what you think.
My comment on Graduate School was thinking about finances for your FULL education (Undergrad + Masters). The cost difference between a TCNJ and Villanova for your bachelors would more than pay for a Masters at any school. I agree 100% assuming you are graduating from an accredited program there is little advantage in where your undergrad degree is from.
Yes I am a Nova Grad (Actually a Civil Engineering Grad).
Agree on your other comments too. as more geared toward people who are solely looking at Rankings of Engineering schools. That tend to be slanted toward large research universities but actually can be detrimental to undergrads.
Number one indicator of student success in college is their involvement in the college community. If the student is interested in the offerings of a larger campus then they certainly should keep that as a part of their decision process
I suspect that where a student went to college is a relevant factor among others. Employers don’t have a lot to go on when they hire - especially before they get to the interview stage of the process. So, if they’ve had a lot of success with past hires from School X, they’re likely more favorably disposed toward applicants from that school.
I’m not saying that anyone is going to get hired simply based on their alma mater, but it’s probably a factor - especially in the screening process.
My opinion would be that no engineering student should ever pay for their own graduate tuition. Either have an employer pay, get it covered by a teaching/research assistantships, or win a fellowship.
The one exception is an accelerated BS/MS program, which is probably justifiable in most cases.
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This is the myth; Lafayette will be the first to say that it isn’t so. In sitting through the presentation by the director of admissions, time and time again the answer was “well engineering is different.” It was different in that the curriculum is so rigid, as are all ABET curricula for the most part, that engineers did not have the latitude to take any more liberal arts courses than they do at any other ABET program, nor is it likely that they can study abroad. The common course of study at Lafayette is 7 classes. Cal Poly requires 9, Illinois, 24 hours. MIT, 25 hours. The only place where engineering is truly dropped into a classic, FULL liberal arts curriculum is Dartmouth. As a result, their ABET accredited BS is 5 years. Do it in 4 and you get a non-ABET accredited BA.
Even in these cases there is the possibility of funding for the last year in some programs, making them a screamin’ deal.
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments!
I will second Stevens and Manhattan College based on my experiences with alums as colleagues. They both produce quality graduates and are close to NYC, where there are a lot of civil engineering jobs). Been working on the construction management side during my career and there is a disproportionately high number of Manhattan College graduates in this industry. Definitely a lot of connections there.
Smaller class sizes isn’t always necessarily better. Obviously it depends on your son/daughter. As someone who went to a school with 18 civil engineering students in my graduating class, the drawback that comes to mind is there’s fewer upper level electives to choose from.
Define “classic liberal arts education” for this purpose.
There are two “class sizes,” the overall graduating number of students and the number of spots available in a given lecture. Typically they are directly proportional…more students in an overall program, more packed into lectures. It’s not always the case though. Take Cal Poly. It has almost 6000 engineering students, but Calculus lectures as an example are capped at 32. They have a very deep and broad curriculum. It’s one of those programs where students seem to get the best of both worlds.
Truly small programs can not only be lacking in curriculum depth, but also in facilities for labs and clubs.