<p>My College Counseler told me that Harvard does not place much emphasis on their undergrads and the education is a bit lacking. She said that they tend to focus much more on grad students, and they acknowledge this as well. Is she just bustin my nuts, or is she actually right?</p>
<p>Anyone who has any insight on this want to help me out? Actual undergrads- even better.</p>
<p>If you think you can go to Harvard and not get an extremely high quality education, you are sadly mistaken.</p>
<p>I have talked to many college counselors who say the Undergraduate Education at Harvard is overrated; however, that doesn't mean it isn't great. There are so many good schools out there, as we all know - and in the end - it doesn't matter which good school you received your degree from, but how you use your education.</p>
<p>Even actual undergrads would have trouble answering this question, since we can't compare our experiences to the grad students'. I know people here who are dissatisified with the quality of their education, and I know people at small liberal arts colleges who are also dissatisified with the quality of their education. It's hard to say that Harvard as an institution cares more about its graduate students; sure, I can look at the law school's student center and new skating rink and large gym and turn a little green, but Harvard's massively decentralized structure makes it hard to say anything about its institutional priorities.</p>
<p>Now if you wanted to say that Harvard is more focused on research than on teaching, that might be true, and it's probably true of any large research university. The flip side is that students at such universities get lots of opportunities to be involved with research.</p>
<p>Pentasa, You've got an astute counselor. Harvard's lack of an undergraduate focus is legendary. Great grad programs, but it ends there. I suggest you read the article below.</p>
<p>I'll save Byerly the trouble and post the Crimson's response to Douthat's article <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505731%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505731</a> (and if you're that interested, Douthat's response to the response: <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505731%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505731</a> )</p>
<p>Anyway, Harvard clearly isn't a LAC. You'll have big lecture classes, there are profs who care more about research than teaching, and you might even interact with a few TAs. I'd actually disagree with Bluesteel4PETIT, I believe it <b>is</b> possible to graduate from Harvard without getting a high quality education. However, if you take advantage of the available opportunities, I think it's possible to get an <b>unparalleled</b> education as a Harvard undergradbut it does require some initiative.</p>
<p>I think just<em>forget</em>me inadvertently posted the link to the article twice rather than Douthat's response in the second link. Douthat's response is at <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505878%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505878</a>.</p>
<p>And I completely agree that, not being a LAC, Harvard is not for everyone. Harvard does not really reach out to its students (though it is working on improving in this respect), and you won't be able to take full advantage of what Harvard has to offer if you're not willing to be proactive and take some initiative. </p>
<p>My focus as an undergrad was to find small courses with senior faculty, and it really wasn't that hard. I took a few lecture courses - such as introductory economics - because they often offered a parade of luminaries. But I also had classes of under 25 with senior faculty such as John Rawls, Harvey Mansfield, Judith Shklar and Duncan Kennedy (a law school professor who taught an undergrad seminar on legal history).</p>
<p>This year, 80% of freshman took a freshman seminar (15 or fewer students) and Harvard's goal for next year is for all freshmen to take one. These are taught by senior faculty (including one on globalization last year taught by Larry Summers). The opportunities are there if you want to take advantage of them.</p>
<p>"The opportunities are there if you want to take advantage of them."</p>
<p>both my harvard and yale alumni interviewers expressed this to me in regards to any college. Heck, as a high school student taking community college classes, I have taken classes where the prof was a caltech Ph.d, or authored the standard textbook in their field(microbiology and cultural anthropology) </p>
<p>I think the gems can be found most anywhere, it is just a matter of looking. and it is a general theme that if you really want to take advantage of anything, you can find most anything to take advantage of.</p>
<p>for example, I'm doing immunopathology cancer research right now because I researched who had studies published in the field and I started to call them up... I had no special "connections" or a degree from an elite college to get this, I was just an eager high school student.... </p>
<p>the aforementioned is what I have experienced with most of my ec's...</p>
<p>" Harvard does not really reach out to its students (though it is working on improving in this respect)"</p>
<p>Someone forgot to tell Harvard President Lawrence Summers.</p>
<p>"Here is my favorite (indirect) quote, reported to Bradley by a student who met with Summers during office hours. The student told Summers "he was disappointed by how little contact he'd had with most of his professors." In reply, Summers "basically said that at Harvard, we choose to go only for the best scholars, and that if you wanted somewhere that focused on undergraduate teaching, you should go to a place like Amherst or Swarthmore." (previous post by CCer)</p>
<p>Take with a grain of salt the sour sniping by those who are emotionally attached to other schools, or otherwise resentful of Harvard.</p>
<p>The fact is, an overwhelming majority of the top students <em>who have a choice</em> invariably choose Harvard over all other schools for an undergraduate education - including Stanford, Princeton, Yale and MIT - and always have.</p>
<p>Furthermore, having chosen Harvard, they seem reasonably happy with their choice. As USNews reports, Harvard has the highest retention rate (percentage of matriculants who remain to graduate in six years and neither drop out nor transfer) of any college or university in America.</p>
<p>Welcome back Alpha. But it would be nice if youd find some new material to post every once in a while. :)</p>
<p>Ive heard directly from Larry Summers, Bill Kirby and Dick Gross on this subject within the last few months, and I can assure you they are all very focused on undergraduate education at Harvard. So you will forgive me if I dont put as much credence in an anecdote about an alleged conversation between Summers and an unnamed student at an unnamed time reported by Richard Blow in a book with a clear agenda. </p>
<p>And you forgot to include this quote from the article you linked: To call Richard Blow a low-rent opportunist would be unfair," the Hartford Courant opined in 2002. To low-rent opportunists, that is.</p>
<p>Retention rate and revealed preference are NOT a measure of undergraduate quality. That said, Harvard gets unfairly criticized in this debate because it is Harvard. The Freshman Seminar sounds like a good step in the right direction.</p>
<p>Here we go again. The typical Byerly/Cosar response. "When you don't like the message, (forget the merits) attack the messenger."</p>
<p>Is retention rate at H a measure of happiness or grade inflation on a massive basis (what was it, 90+% graduating cum laude?)?</p>
<p>Pentasa's GC was on target and reflected the understanding of many. I suggest that you (Cosar/Byerly) spend less time here trying to distort reality and more time trying to change the undergraduate model. I am not anti-H, but I am anti-distortion. As I have said before the Harvard grad model works wonderfully, the undergrad model does not. It needs to be fixed. Unfortunately the President doesn't get it.</p>
<p>Alpha, I'll admit that I was not able to resist the cheap one-liner. Sorry it caused you to miss the substance of my posts. I might also note that your repetitive assertion of a conclusory position doesn't do much to address the merits of this issue.</p>
<p>But I do agree with both you and crimsonbulldog that retention rate is not a measure of undergraduate quality. As for revealed preference, while it isn't directly a measure of undergraduate quality, it may be viewed as a measure, at least in part, of high school students' (and their parents', counselors', etc.) perception of undergraduate quality.</p>
<p>While the Revealed Preference ranking is a pretty fair indicator of "undergraduate quality" - at least in the mind of the informed customers who have options and who are preparing to spend a great deal of money on their "purchase" - the retention rate, along with the percentage of alumni contributing, are seen as among the most meaningful markers for "student satisfaction."</p>
<p>Only posters with a clear bias or agenda will continue to deny, in the face of pretty strong contrary evidence, that top students are pretty happy to get into Harvard and are pretty happy to be there once admitted.</p>
<p>"Only posters with a clear bias or agenda will continue to deny, ---"</p>
<p>This is precisely the problem. The issue is UNDERGRADUATE FOCUS. Byerly is in denial. He refuses to recognize what even you Cosar have recognized. How can you have a discussion based on the merits when top posting Harvard alums deal with ISSUES in this manner. By refusing to recognize what is so obvious to many, Byerly is hurting his cause more than helping it. In fact, he often insults people with his spin (and that is a polite choice of wording).</p>
<p>Hint: When you have a concern, deal with it. Pretending it is not there won't help. Don't insult one's intelligence. Pentasa's GC concerns are not isolated and are representative of a large concern out there. Simply denying them will not work. Harvard's brand name will always attract applicants, but you do not want the brand to mask issues of concern.</p>
<p>Despite the snide comments of posters with emotional ties to other schools, an anti-Harvard bias stemming from who knows what slight or grievance, Harvard, its faculty and its students are indeed willing to focus - and do focus openly and constantly - on ways to improve the curricculum, etc. </p>
<p>Unlike some of the usual suspects here, they have no need to claim perfection on behalf of their own undergraduate college - or to run down the "competition" - in order to make themselves feel better.</p>
<p>Yes Byerly. Stay true to form and keep ATTACKING the messenger until the message in the Original Post is completly obscured. And maybe, if your rhetoric is sufficiently harsh, you will keep the young consumers from taking part in the discussion.</p>
<p>P.S. I have never been rejected or slighted by H in any way. As I have said before because of a variety of circumstances, I have some knowledge of each of the Ivies, but my knowledgeable of Harvard is greatest. Students here deserve the truth and not distorted or false statements.</p>
<p>Perhaps Byerly you will believe the former Harvard Dean:</p>
<p>I understand, alpha, that your primary shtick is as a Princeton Troll - bashing Harvard and/or Yale as needed to advance the cause, in your every post - starting with silly boast/post #1 !!!</p>
<p>A Harvard Dean verifies all that I and the Pentasa GC have said and your response is to call me a P troll? Pathetic.</p>
<p>Was there a misrepresentation, distortion or falsehood in the referenced posting? You did not have to go back that far Byerly. I stated the following here 5 days ago (in an exchange with Cosar):</p>
<p>"What I appeciate about Princeton is, for the most part, similar to what all the college ranking researchers have found. It is the best at what it does and it does not try to be all things to all people. In a nutshell Princeton provides UNDERGRADUATES with the best of all worlds - a total undergraduate focus with world class university resources. Both students and educators can learn from the model. I am genuinely impressed by it and hope to make others aware of it. Hopefully, this knowledge can help others when evaluating their own prospects."</p>
<p>Any comments on the Harvard Dean's statement Byerly, or will you label her a Communist as well?</p>