Underrated/Overrated Top 20 Private Universities

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Recently, there have been a good no. of posts regarding whether a particular school is overrated or underrated.</p>

<p>While there are diff. ways to look at prestige (and while it will likely differ depending on what group one asks and what criteria one uses), let’s take a look at the “prestige” of the top 20 private non-HYPSM universities (which roughly have the same strength of student body) by looking at how many of their departments in the big, traditional majors - engineering, biological sciences, chemistry, math, physics, economics, English, history, poly sci, psych and sociology are ranked in the top 10, top 20 and top 30 in accordance w/ the latest USNWR graduate school rankings (yes, I know the USNWR rankings are hardly the definitive word and that graduate school rankings in a particular dept. don’t always or necessarily correlate w/ the strength of the underlying undergraduate program - but let’s put aside those arguments for now).</p>

<p>It’s safe to say that HYPSM are generally regarded in a league a bit above the other top 20 private universities – so let’s take them out of the equation. Public elites like Berkeley, UVA and UMich have a different mandate than the private universities and Caltech is so limited in scope academically that it leaves us w/ roughly 13-14 private universities (only 13 if one doesn’t include Dartmouth) in the top 20 (as ranked by USNWR).</p>

<p>No. of programs in top 10/top 20/top 30</p>

<p>Brown 0 -3 - 6
Northwestern 2 - 7 - 11
Duke 1 - 5 - 9
Rice 0 - 0 - 4
Emory 0 - 0 - 3
Johns Hopkins 3 - 3 - 9
WUSTL 1 - 2 -2
Vanderbilt 0 - 0 - 2
Notre Dame 0 - 0 – 0
UChicago 7 - 9 - 10
Cornell 4 -10 -11
Penn 3 - 8 - 11
Columbia 4 - 10 – 11</p>

<p>Caveat – not every school has a graduate program in each field (this is the reason I didn’t include Dartmouth – which only has a few of these graduate programs – none of them ranked in the top 30 however).</p>

<p>If you add in the business, law and med school rankings (which do add to the overall prestige of the school) – you get:</p>

<p>Brown 0 - 3 - 6
Northwestern 4 - 10 - 14
Duke 2 - 8 - 12
Rice 0 - 0 - 4
Emory 0 - 1 - 6
Johns Hopkins 4 - 4 - 10
WUSTL 2 - 5 -5
Vanderbilt 0 - 1 - 3
Notre Dame 0 - 0 – 0
UChicago 9 - 12 - 13
Cornell 4 -13 -14
Penn 6 - 11 - 14
Columbia 6 - 13 - 14</p>

<p>(Some schools, like Rice, don’t have one or more of the 3 major professional schools).</p>

<p>Based on this – I’d say that people bash Cornell for no good reason, both UChicago and NU are underrated, Duke is a bit overrated and that WUSTL has a bit more to go before it can be seen on par w/ what it regards as its peer schools.</p>

<p>(I did this on the fly, so it is possible I may have miscounted here or there).</p>

<p>Fire away!</p>

2

<p>I'm rather new to CC, and as I have expressed elsewhere have been simply shocked at how much Cornell is mocked on this forum. The HYPSM boosters barely lower their noses to acknowledge its existence, while the Duke/Vanderbilt/Rice etc... boosters seem to be gunning to knock it down so their own schools can rise in prestige perception.</p>

<p>Glad to see the stats show it holds its own and then some.</p>

<p>That said, I don't know why you give free pass to HYPSM. Individual programs (such as engineering) within several of those schools (obviously not MIT) are significantly lower in quality than the ones subject to comparison. I don't think anyone believes Harvard's undergraduate program (once overcoming the daunting hurdle of being accepted) is worthy of its reputation. Every Harvard graduate I've ever known has said it's relatively easy and almost impossible to fail.</p>

<p>I guess I fall back on the fit issue rather than trying to rank all these schools.</p>

3

<p>Why not include Cal, Michigan, UCLA, UNC, UT-Austin, UVa and Wisconsin? I realize they have a slightly different mandate, but they are definitely worth adding.</p>

<p>Cal would be SCARY. I believe that a whopping 13 of the 14 departments/programs would be ranked among the top 10. Cal does not have a Medical school. </p>

<p>Michigan would have 9 departments/programs ranked among the top 10 and all 14 departments/programs ranked among the top 20. </p>

<p>I don't know about the other public elites, but I am sure they would all do very well.</p>

<p>Given the fact that public elites are no longer ranked among the top 20 institutions by the USNWR (and therefore on CC) I would say they are vastly underrated.</p>

4

<p>
[quote]
Cal would be SCARY. I believe that a whopping 13 of the 14 departments/programs would be ranked among the top 10. Cal does not have a Medical school.

[/quote]

Damn right! Cal would make all of those schools look overrated by comparison.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Rice 0 - 0 - 4
Emory 0 - 1 - 6
Vanderbilt 0 - 1 - 3
Notre Dame 0 - 0 – 0

[/quote]

Pretty sad if you ask me.</p>

5

<p>k&s - this is very illuminating. Just for comparison, would you post the numbers for HYPSM and some of the top public universities? Thanks.</p>

6

<p>I know that all 14 departments/programs at Stanford would be ranked among the top 10. Hell, all 14 would be ranked among the top 5! LOL! </p>

<p>I think 13 of the 14 departments/programs would be ranked in the top 10 at Harvard. Engineering is the odd man out and it would probably be ranked in the top 30.</p>

<p>MIT would have 8 programs/departments ranked in the top 10 and 1 ranked in the top 20. </p>

<p>I am not sure about Princeton and Yale.</p>

<p>K&s, be a pal and do the work for us! hehe!</p>

7

<p>I got different numbers than k&s...</p>

<p>law, business, medicine, engineering, biological sciences, chemistry, math, physics, economics, English, history, poly sci, psych and sociology are ranked in the top 10, top 20 and top 30 in accordance w/ the latest USNWR graduate school rankings - sorted by # of top ranked programs:</p>

<p>No. of programs in top 10 (1-10)/top 20(11-20)/top 30(21-30)
Stanford 14-0-0 (14)
Harvard 13-0-1 (14)
Berkeley 13-0-0 (13)
Yale 9-4-0 (13)
Chicago 9-3-1 (13)
Princeton 8-3-0 (11)
MIT 8-1-0 (9)
Michigan 7-7-0 (14)
Columbia 6-7-1 (14)
UCLA 6-7-0 (13)
Penn 6-5-3 (14)
Cornell 4-10-0 (14)
Northwestern 4-6-4 (14)
Illinois 4-2-5 (11)
Johns Hopkins 4-1-5 (10)
Wisconsin 3-8-2 (13)
Duke 2-6-4 (12)
WUSTL 2-2-1 (5)
Virginia 1-3-3 (7)
USC 1-1-1 (3)
Texas 0-9-3 (12)
Vanderbilt 0-2-2 (4)
Emory 0-1-5 (6)
Rice 0-0-4 (4)
Notre Dame 0-0-1 (1)</p>

8

<p>That's a really impressive run by Berkeley - solidly beating even Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Chicago.</p>

9

<p>^ Add in UCSF (Berkeley's defacto medical school) and it has 14/14 programs ranked in top 10...tied with 'furd.</p>

10

<p>^ Must be somethin' in that Bay water.</p>

11

<p>Who cares? At the undergraduate level, specific department strength/quality isn't that relevant. I would rather look at the SAT scores of incoming students, job placement, research/internship opportunities, alumni giving, student/faculty ratio, etc. In all those areas, Cornell and Berkeley falter quite a bit.</p>

12

<p>The fact is that it does matter. My last 3 semesters at Michigan, I took a total of 5 classes of what could be counted as graduate level courses. Furthermore, TAs are graduate students. My freshman year, I took a class with 2 Academy of Sciences Professors in Archaeology.</p>

13

<p>But a small private school actually has PROFESSORS that teach undergraduate classes, who usually do a better job than some TA.</p>

14

<p>Added UNC, Caltech, NYU and Georgetown:</p>

<p>No. of programs in top 10 (1-10)/top 20(11-20)/top 30(21-30)
Stanford 14-0-0 (14)
Harvard 13-0-1 (14)
Berkeley 13-0-0 (13)
Yale 9-4-0 (13)
Chicago 9-3-1 (13)
Princeton 8-3-0 (11)
MIT 8-1-0 (9)
Michigan 7-7-0 (14)
Columbia 6-7-1 (14)
UCLA 6-7-0 (13)
Penn 6-5-3 (14)
Caltech 5-0-0 (5)
Cornell 4-10-0 (14)
Northwestern 4-6-4 (14)
Illinois 4-2-5 (11)
Johns Hopkins 4-1-5 (10)
Wisconsin 3-8-2 (13)
Duke 2-6-4 (12)
WUSTL 2-2-1 (5)
NYU 2-1-3 (6)
Virginia 1-3-3 (7)
UNC 1-6-4 (11)
USC 1-1-1 (3)
Texas 0-9-3 (12)
Vanderbilt 0-2-2 (4)
Emory 0-1-5 (6)
Georgetown 0-1-1 (2)
Rice 0-0-4 (4)
Notre Dame 0-0-1 (1)</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
But a small private school actually has PROFESSORS that teach undergraduate classes, who usually do a better job than some TA.

[/quote]

All my classes at Cal were taught by professors. TAs only led the discussion sections.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Who cares? At the undergraduate level, specific department strength/quality isn't that relevant. I would rather look at the SAT scores of incoming students, job placement, research/internship opportunities, alumni giving, student/faculty ratio, etc. In all those areas, Cornell and Berkeley falter quite a bit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Saying you look at placment rates is the same as saying you look at SAT scores. Professional fields (business/med/law school) don't require any majors and outside of premed (which only requires 4 intro courses), there are no specific course requirements. In other words, the strength of a school's education has nothing to do with professional school placement rates. It's dependent on the individual and, not surprisingly, placement rates follow selectivity.</p>

<p>But, for those of us who look at college as more than a stepping stone to grad school and actually care about the quality of education we are receiving, the strength of academic departments does matter. Duke and Cornell's engineering departments might have similar placement rates to Wall Street but that does not imply both departments offer the same education. The resources, number of top professors, breadth of courses offered are completely different in Cornell Engineering vs. Duke Engineering. If you think you will get the same quality of education in both departments, you are kidding yourself. But of course, some don't really care about the actual education so I guess for them, it's irrelevant.</p>

<p>Also, I don't know where people get the idea that TA teach courses at places like Cornell. TA's hold review sessions. Professors teach courses. It is sometimes very beneficial to have the TA rather than the professor do the reviews because they often relate to the students better and are able to identify with the troubles the students are having.</p>

17

<p>I added Computer Science and Geology to the mix.</p>

<h1>1 Princeton University: 9 - 12 - 12</h1>

<h1>2 Harvard University: 14 - 15 - 16</h1>

<h1>3 Yale University: 9 - 15 - 15</h1>

<h1>4 Stanford University: 16 -16 -16</h1>

<h1>5 California Institute of Technology: 6 - 8 - 8</h1>

<h1>5 University of Pennsylvania: 6 - 12 - 15</h1>

<h1>7 Massachusetts Institute of Technology: 8 - 11 - 11</h1>

<h1>8 Duke University: 2 - 10 - 14</h1>

<h1>9 Columbia University: 7 - 14 - 16</h1>

<h1>9 University of Chicago: 9 - 13 - 14</h1>

<h1>11 Dartmouth College: N/A</h1>

<h1>12 Cornell University: 5 - 15 - 16</h1>

<h1>12 Washington University-St Louis: 2 - 5 - 6</h1>

<h1>14 Brown University: 0 - 4 - 8</h1>

<h1>14 Johns Hopkins University: 4 - 5 - 13</h1>

<h1>14 Northwestern University: 4 - 10 - 14</h1>

<h1>17 Emory University: 0 - 1 - 6</h1>

<h1>17 Rice University: 0 - 1 - 6</h1>

<h1>19 University of Notre Dame: 0 - 0 - 0</h1>

<h1>19 Vanderbilt University: 0 - 2 - 5</h1>

<h1>21 University of California-Berkeley: 15 - 15 - 15</h1>

<h1>22 Carnegie Mellon University: 2 - 4 - 5</h1>

<h1>23 Georgetown University: 0 - 1 - 2</h1>

<h1>23 University of Virginia: 1 - 4 - 10</h1>

<h1>25 University of California-Los Angeles: 6 - 15 - 16</h1>

<h1>25 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 9 - 16 - 16</h1>

18

<p>"But a small private school actually has PROFESSORS that teach undergraduate classes, who usually do a better job than some TA."</p>

<p>Clendenenator, that's a myth. Only 3% of the classes at my public university are actually led by TAs. 97% of classes are taught by the faculty that make it's departments top-ranked.</p>

19

<p>Well then the poster before me shouldn't have cited his TAs as a resource.</p>

<p>Besides all that, the point of an undergraduate education isn't just to learn about the book subjects... if it were, then an online degree would be every bit as useful as a degree from Harvard. College is about growing as an individual and learning how to solve problems, which, one might argue, is better done in an atmosphere of other intelligent students or what-have-you than a large public university. Although, I suppose one could argue just the opposite, but that's a personal opinion.</p>

20

<p>No. of programs in top 10 (1-10)/top 20(11-20)/top 30(21-30)/ (total # ranked programs)/ PA score </p>

<p>Stanford 14-0-0 (14) 4.9
Harvard 13-0-1 (14) 4.9
Berkeley 13-0-0 (13) 4.8
Yale 9-4-0 (13) 4.8
Chicago 9-3-1 (13) 4.6
Princeton 8-3-0 (11) 4.9
MIT 8-1-0 (9) 4.9
Michigan 7-7-0 (14) 4.5
Columbia 6-7-1 (14) 4.6
UCLA 6-7-0 (13) 4.2
Penn 6-5-3 (14) 4.5
Caltech 5-0-0 (5) 4.7
Cornell 4-10-0 (14) 4.6
Northwestern 4-6-4 (14) 4.3
Illinois 4-2-5 (11) 4.0
Johns Hopkins 4-1-5 (10) 4.6
Wisconsin 3-8-2 (13) 4.1
Duke 2-6-4 (12) 4.4
WUSTL 2-2-1 (5) 4.1
NYU 2-1-3 (6) 3.8
Virginia 1-3-3 (7) 4.3
UNC 1-6-4 (11) 4.2
USC 1-1-1 (3) 4.0
Texas 0-9-3 (12) 4.1
Vanderbilt 0-2-2 (4) 4.0
Emory 0-1-5 (6) 4.0
Georgetown 0-1-1 (2) 4.0
Rice 0-0-4 (4) 4.0
Notre Dame 0-0-1 (1) 3.9</p>

<p>NYU, UCLA, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin look underrated by PA score. Johns Hopkins, Duke, and Caltech look slightly overrated by same measure...</p>